Joe Mauer is having a pretty down season after last year’s MVP campaign, and there’s a reason why:
…. the reigning American League MVP looks little like his 2009 self, even after gorging the last two days on Kansas City pitching. His power output is unplugged, with only six home runs after mashing 28 last season. His on-base percentage is the lowest since his rookie season. He’s catching a quarter of opposing basestealers, far below his career average. And at 27, Mauer is feeling the sort of wear that builds in men who spent half their professional lives squatting in cumbersome gear and taking ball after inadvertent ball off all 206 of their bones.
Mauer’s left heel nags him. His right shoulder aches. Two other injuries – his back and his hip, for which the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported he receives treatment – are something neither he nor the organization will address publicly. Because while the heel and shoulder are more pesky, anything having to do with a back or hip, let alone both, inspires a great deal of fear.
It should inspire fear, because catchers simply do not have the same career longevity and health that, say, a first basemen does. In fact, it wouldn’t be a stretch to say that a team loses at least 25% of a catchers hitting production over his career if they leave him behind the plate. This should be common knowledge, but it isn’t. Many players have played at least 1500 games. Quite a few have played 2000 games. But now too many catchers have. In fact, in the list of career games played, the top fifty is bereft of even one catcher. Carlton Fisk is at 52, with 2499 games played.
When a team has a catcher who can post an All Star caliber line of .300/.400/.500, there is no question that that player should be moved out from behind the plate. None. A player of Posey’s hitting ability comes along once in a generation. If you look at a great catchers career stats, you will see MVP-caliber years followed by one, or even two years of missed games, huge swings in production, and overall, a much shorter career than that player would’ve had otherwise. And that’s in the case of a great catcher. A catcher who can play 135 or 140 games a year, year after year, is rare, regardless of his production.
I’d also mention that, in the case of this Giants team, we don’t even have a real, full-time first basemen to displace. Sabean should let him finish the year behind the dish, and then in the off-season, go get him a first baseman’s glove.
Otherwise, this is your future, Buster. You can be the best catcher in the world. You will be hurt all the time, and you will never reach your potential as a hitter.
As you all know, Buster Posey now has a 20-game hitting streak, so I looked up the rookie hitting streak record. It belongs to –surprise– a catcher, Benito Santiago, who raked for 34 games in 1987. He finished that season with a nice .290/.308/.468 line. He played in 146 games that season. He ended up playing in over 1900 games, which is a lot for catcher. But his career games played list looks exactly like I’m talking about. He played in 17, 146, 139, 129, 100, 152, 106, 139, 101, 81, 136, 97, 15, 109, 89, 133, 126, 108, 49, 6 games.
Look at the kind of hitter Posey is. Is that the kind of career you want to see for him? Is that the kind of career he wants? If you are running a team, and you invest as much in Posey as the Giants have, and will have to if he remains a Giant, isn’t it imperative that you avoid that result? It is to me.
As a sidenote:
Does anyone know why Sandoval isn’t playing? I haven’t heard an announcer mention a reason these last two games. Anybody?
Hat tip to David Pinto.
35 Backtalkers
Sandoval isn’t playing because he’s in Venezuela dealing with something or other. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2010/07/24/sports/s190210D05.DTL
He was in the dugout last night. I saw him, and they didn’t mention anything. Thanks.
catching his entire career didnt hurt bench
posey enjoys catching….let him catch
I fail to see how referencing Bench –arguably the greatest catcher of all-time– is an appropriate counterpoint. My point is neither debatable, nor, for that matter, very original. Everyone knows that catching sucks the life out of a player. It is a well-established fact of the game.
For a hitter of Posey’s apparent caliber to continue working behind the plate long-term is foolish. It is detrimental to his development as a hitter, and it is detrimental to his long-term contribution to winning. He will get hurt. He will play through injuries, injuries he would easily avoid playing at first, and those injuries will do to him what they are currently doing to Mauer.
Oh, and as for Bench, his career was essentially over at 32. A quick glance at his career stats page shows that, after his MVP season at age 24, he was never quite the same player. He was still great, but he never hit over 40 homers again (after doing it twice in three seasons), and he never reached an OPS over .900 again (also twice in three years).
He was still awesome, but you can see the difference. At his peak age of 27-28 years old, he was substantially diminished as a hitter. His best three seasons were his age 22-24 seasons. From that point forward, instead of getting better and better, he was already in a decline. Because he was a catcher.
thing is…giants have 2 very good prospects for first base and nada at catcher….not even a defensive catcher
so if you slide posey over to first….you are gonna have a spot in the lineup that cannot hit….and you are gonna lose his arm behind the plate
have you noticed something since he has been called up? nobody is running on them anymore….that saves runs
shoot….lots of players have knee probs and they never catch
i was shocked that he was catching today…
thought for sure he was gonna be at first
Unc Joe,
Amen. All great points. Referenced your same comment last week about Posey’s arm as a major factor keeping runners in place. Saves at least one run a game.
Do agree that John has a good point…and within three years Posey should be moved out of cather. Just not now.
The Fish are tough to pitch to…and must be the biggest(size wise) club in the majors. Never seen more players over 6 ft 3 and over 225 lbs. on one team. Flat out huge.
Need to take at least two from the Blue Crew. Just keep winning series…and we will be fine.
It’s ours to lose.
Totally agree with this assessment. Whiteside stinks as a hitter (for more confirmation read the Baseball prospectus article on the Mets game, amazing how brain dead the Giants as a team were to F-rods suckiness, but for Whiteside to be sitting on fastball was especially daft), but I would rather see him in there with Posey at first.
But the staff is happy, Sabes is happy and Posey is probably going to be a catcher for a few years, then fade away. Why is Sandoval not catching? Supposedly because of Molina, but probably because he is too good a hitter to waste as a catcher. Posey is proving to be way too good a hitter to catch. What would have Santiago have done as a pure hitter?
As a first baseman, Posey has the chance to be a terrific player. But as a catcher, even for a few years, he has a chance to be a Hall of Famer. Big-hitting first basemen are far more common than big-hitting catchers. Luckily for the Giants, Posey is not Mike Piazza, who couldn’t/wouldn’t learn to play first base. He could catch 100 games and play first base for another 50 or so (and DH for some of the AL road games). I might see if I could have Panda catch 20-30 games a season — might even help him lose some weight and stop swinging at every pitch in the same area code as the strike zone. Posey becomes a really special player only if he’s providing offense from a position that doesn’t usually generate it, such as catcher.
.
Um….
He is a special hitter, right now. You are seeing a once in a generation young hitter, and regardless of his position, a guy who throws up a .300/.400/.500 line is considered an MVP candidate.
Sure, he is better than your average catcher. One of the reasons this is true is that your average catcher is BEAT TO SHIT FROM BEING A CATCHER.
That’s why lots of players produce big numbers from the outfield, or from first base. The day to day demands of the position are substantially less. Given that the Giants haven’t had All Star production from first base since Will Clark was here 25 fucking years ago, I don’t think you should be so cavalier about how easy it is to get that kind of production from the position.
I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with you here John. Your basic point that having Buster at catcher will probably shorten his career and hurt his hitting is fair, no argument with that. However I also think DonK has a point in that the reason Buster is so valuable is because compared to other MLB Catchers he is an absolute stud, whereas he compares less favourably to other MLB 1st baseman.
I also agree with the point that good-hitting 1B are easier to find then C. Aubrey Huff and Russel Branyan spring to mind as two 1B who were available this past winter and have produced good results. A free agent catcher who has put up good numbers this year? Nobody springs to mind right now (feel free to let me know if I’m missing someone). The point here is that although yes it is difficult to find anyone who could replace Posey’s production at 1B or C, the drop-off to the next best available 1B is far less then to the next best available C.
I think you bring up a valid point about not wanting to ride Posey into the ground, but moving him to 1B seems to me like a little bit of overkill. The Giants should look at playing him at 1B a reasonable amount in order to save his legs as much as possible, the 50@1B/100@C suggested above seems reasonable.
Mauer had a fluke year last season. He’s hitting more along the lines of his 2007 and 2008 seasons right now, which is still pretty good. There’s no need to move Posey so early.
Sandoval’s going through a divorce and had to deal with some stuff in Venezuela. Good that he’s back and was the only Giant who could manage a hit this afternoon…
From A Giants Perspective I Completely Disagree.
There is zero guarantee that Buster will still be a Giant after he hits free agency after the 2016 season so what happens to his career after that just should not matter to the Giants. There is every reason to believe that Buster will be able to perform at (or at least close enough) to peak level for this year and the next six. Having this type of offensive punch from catcher gives the Giants a huge advantage over teams with an average offensive catcher, to give up this advantage to benifit Buster’s long term career when he may very well no longer be a Giant is just flat ass stupid.
Like they say: The fastest way to the bigs is to catch. What they don’t say: The fastest way out of the bigs is to catch. John’s right from a player standpoint. The game has changed. You don’t make shit for at least 3 years, middln’ the next 3, cash in after that…if you can keep your body together. Thats a big if.
Fuck management and fuck the ownership. Players are nothing more than chattel, and anybody that ever listens to the disgusting Sabean talk shit about his own players in public will know that to be true.
The best way to ensure against an early breakdown, is to come out from behind the dish. Thats not even debatable.
well, hopefully his agent had him invest his bonus money well
6 mil was a bargain
Hanley Ramirez ss, is hitting worse than last year, Pablo Sandoval
a thirdbaseman/firstbaseman is hitting worse than last year, Albert
Pujols a firstbaseman is hitting worse than last year although still
fairly good for anyone not Pujols. Maybe they are all hurting, or
maybe except for the giants, this is the year of the pitcher. It is
for Zito, but Cain and Lincecum not as good as last year.
sabean has gotta go
a flurry of activity right before the deadline….most of it coming from the bums
sabean lands a lefty specialist….for martinez and bowker…nothing creative
seems that the only team that will deal with the giants is the pirates
this is an issue
shows that the article written about sabean being judged the worst gm to deal with, was not far off the mark
D-I-N-O-S-A-U-R
His time has come and, long ago, gone. He belongs to the days of Cap Anson and Charlie Comisky and George Steinbrenner. Obtuse. Crude. Bombastic. Insecure, egomaniac. He really needs to be gone. Any profession in which you are the most senior in an exclusive club and your peers rank you as horrible to deal with, should tell you that you need to retire, quit, or swallow some hemlock
ok
15 games abover 500 for the first time since 04
20 wins in july….best month since 2000
the team is good
the team is maybe good. We’ll talk in September when the posers fall off the trail. Better than the last 5, but than again, a no. pencil in the eye would have been an upgrade. Its all about context and perspective.
+mia and Unc Joe,
You know I find you guys most entertaining, and read this site because of you, and a few others. Need to get on board and enjoy the ride here dudes. Like you guys…I’ve been following the Gigantes almost 50 years. You know I called this team last year…the most boring team in baseball. This current team has great chemistry…and are exciting to watch. They believe they can win every game. When is the last time you saw a Gigantes team with this many comeback wins? Players know their roles…and are producing. Mota was clutch yesterday.
I for one…am glad Sabean didn’t mess with the roster too much. We needed what he got…and even though I like Bowker…he needed a change of scenery. Our daily line-up is solid…is winning…and doesn’t need to be fucked with. Let this team keep playing as is…it’s not broken…and in fact…is getting better.
Time for everyone to become believers…and get behind this team. No need for negativity and trashing. Feel we are the team to beat in the NL.
F—king awesome yesterday. Hit Posey…and Burrell makes them pay. Are you kidding me…and you guys are finding things to bitch at. This team will win the West…and I see the possibility of 100 wins. We are the team to beat.
Our other needed bat? We have it…Sandoval. He just needs to step it up. Torres may be the best lead off in all of the NL…and his confidense grows daily. With Huff, Uribe, Posey in the middle of this line-up…and if Sandoval heats up…watch out.
Team scoring most runs in July…Gigantes. That says it all…leave this current line-up in place.
Get out the brooms.
Stay Hot Gigantes.
Exactly!
did you see me bitching?
im enjoying watching this team for the first time in 6 years
but facts count
and the facts are, the team still leading the division has a payroll that is a third of the giants….and as a result, they were able to make moves that truly improved their club
sabean…who spent 11 of his 13 years as gm, mainly drafting pitchers…had to go out and trade for pen help…and had to overpay for one
shoot…even the bums got paid to take lilly
i want this team to win…i dont want sabean or bochy to get any of the credit
Unc Joe,
Amen to that brother. Will never give Bochy any credit…and Like I said Sabean was due to get lucky once in a while. Just happy he didn’t make a deal that would shake up the chemistry…and give away the farm. I agree with you 98% of the time…just want to see everyone stress the positive for a change…and keep this wave going. Bowker is collateral damage…and in need of a change of scenery. Hopefully he tears it up with the Bucs.
There are enough facts to bury Sabean for a lifetime….Nobody would disagree with that…and his day will come.
I’m following Gigantes baseball on a daily basis for the first time in ages…and this team has some magic working. I’ve got a good feeling about this team….and want to dwell more on that.
Did not think Bowker needed to be dealt…just happy for him that he will finally get a shot…and it never was going to happen here.
Here’s to a sweep tonight.
Shit, why not wait until November, just to be real sure. What happened to all that certitude? The weapons of mass destruction have to be over their somewhere, right W? Who cares that there’s an entire archive of previous posts, right here. No one will bother to read it. Just keep on pontificating as events overtake you. Never give an inch!
Here’s one of my favorites:
That’s Aubrey Huff, our new first baseman. One of the worst hitters in baseball at his position, a player no better than either of the two first basemen we ended 2009 with, Travis Ishikawa or Ryan Garko –and arguably, worse– but as always, a player who is absolutely, positively, older. Once again, I cannot begin to understand how Sabean can fail –for virtually his entire career, now– to acquire a guy who can stand at first base, catch a throw from the shortstop, and hit a couple of home runs. In just the last two seasons, now, Sabean has spent $14 million dollars and traded one of our top young pitching prospects in his efforts to fill the easiest position to fill on the diamond. Who wants to bet Ishikawa is out there by the end of May? If he is, then you can know that the money and the prospect was wasted, COMPLETELY WASTED; because Brian Sabean cannot do his job.
huff goes to prove that 90 percent of this game is mental
which begs the question….if being able to perform is tied to ones emotional well being, why does our gm go out of his way to bash and demean our younger players and those in the farm system?
What deal would you have liked to have seen? I don’t know what they turned down, so I can’t judge. I am certainly not a Sabean apologist and can’t wait to see the end of his reign, but you can’t judge what you can’t see. Sure, I would have loved to have seen Adam Dunn here and that would have made the Giants the NL favorite, but I would not give up a starting pitcher under Giants control for the next few years for less than half a season of Dunn. If a handfull of prospects could have gotten him, then I’m pissed, but if but if it was Sanchez or MadBum, then I’m pleased. MadBum is under the Giants control for years, but is in uncharted territory as far as innings pitched. Who knows if he’ll hold up down the stretch? Sanchez is signed only for this year, but we know what we’ll get from him in a playoff drive. My guess is that the fear was that trading Sanchez would be essentially betting the pennant race on MadBum and he did not even make the team in spring training.
Bautista was not very interesting. Corey Hart made some sense, since he’s under control until 2012, but he looks like he’s at the top of his market. Ryan Braun would be worth giving up Sanchez/MadBum plus some since he’s under contract for 8 years, but that deal was never mentioned.
What they did accomplish was to strengthen the bullpen with the Padres, Braves, Phillies, Cardinals and Reds coming up. IMHO they gave up nothing for this upgrade. Much as I like Bowker and Martinez, neither is going to be in the Giants long term plans any more than Lopez or Ramierez. The difference is that Bowker and Martinez can’t help short term either (Martinez a little), but Lopez and Ramierez can.
Huff is awesome. Great disciplined hitter. Thrilled to be on a contender. Willing to play anywhere and plays well in three positions (what a day in the field on Friday night, not to mention at the plate). He’s outhitting Pujols. With Molina gone, Rowan and Renteria where they belong on the bench, the team is actually worth cheering for.
Again, I can’t stand Sabien/Bochy, but I don’t want to fall into the trap of hoping the team fails to prove that I was right about them.
It doesn’t matter if Sabean got one right with Huff. Huff is having a career year and is making a great Giant.
On the other hand, how the bleep can Sabean trade Bowker AND Martinez for a limited term, marginal LOOGY?
If ownership had a clue, he would be fired on the spot. Pittsburg is one of the few teams willing to trade with the Giants, and they sure know how to snooker Sabean.
Once again, this GM shows that the only way a player can become a “vet” on this team is have an unbelievable run his first Month, or he is out. Willy Mays would probably not have played for this team. After going 1 for 20, he would have been shuffled to AAA and declared another over-hyped prospect and been shuffled around up and down until he lost his confidence. (and traded).
Bowker may or may not become a regular in the majors, but he has a hell of a lot more upside than any hitter in the farm system. The only way to find out is invest a season in him, like we never did with Shierholtz, or any other decent prospect. Many marginal players “get it”, but after a while in the bigs, facing pitching on a regular basis. Some, like Feliz, never really improve.
*$%$ing &%&$ general manager we have.
Watch Bowker become a 25 HR guy within a couple years once he gets some playing time.
Trantor,
Totally agree with your sentiments on Bowker. Do think he will become a 25+ hr regular someday. I like him…and because I do…am glad that he will finally get a true shot with the Pirates. He got jobbed by the Gigantes…and it wasn’t going to happen for him in SF. Because of Torres success…he’s fallen too far on the depth charts…and wasn’t going to start or play much.
No secret that I’m no Sabean fan…and maybe we could’ve gotten a little more for Martinez and Bowker…you never know. Hope Bowker tears it up. At least he’s not in our division.
But, for the most part…at least Sabean didn’t fuck with the current roster and chemistry…and damage any chances for this year. There are hundreds of reasons why Sabean should be let go…but, that’s for another day.
Just need to stay positive…and get behind this team.
It’s ours to lose…and I do not see that happening. Winning can cure a lot of problems….
IF management had a clue, Sabien would have been fired a decade ago. If Bowker becomes a 25 HR guy, then I’m wrong. I agree about not giving him or Nate a real chance. That’s really a shame and evidence of a misguided organization. But I think it’s that organizational whiplash that has hampered his career to the point where I don’t mind getting a LOOGY at this point in the season. We’ll see. I”m sure we both hope I’m right.
not a decade…after the nlds debacle of 03
that team shouldve gone to the ws
bringing in an extra pitcher in a short series killed the teams chances
not for nothin’ john bowker is 27 and never showed any real flashes in the show, “losing” him for bullpen help was a smart call. 27 year olds aren’t prospects anymore i’m sorry
The Giants got two useful pen arms for players they didn’t need. I like Martinez and don’t care about Bowker.
More importantly, the deals enable them to disappear BB machines Cassilla and Bautista who were just hell to watch.
The team is positioned to win, and it’s now up to the baseball gods.
Should be a fun 2 month ride….
Amen!