Looks like Brian Sabean is getting ready to make another franchise-devastating trade:
…. It’s becoming more apparent, though, that if the Giants are to build a respectable lineup before 2011, they must give up a prime asset — the kind of trade that Sabean made as a rookie G.M. in 1997, when he moved popular third baseman Matt Williams for a package that included Jeff Kent.
With that in mind, club sources said Sabean would put out feelers to see what he could fetch for right-hander Matt Cain, who pitched a complete game Saturday to improve to 5-1. Because Cain is young, controllable and relatively cheap for two more seasons, it would require productive offensive players with similar service-time attributes to strike a deal.
“If the bat per se is talented and hopefully not a free agent to be, you pay the market price, whatever that is,” Sabean said.
The Chron also wrote about the potential moves:
…. “We obviously can compete, but we know where we are challenged, and it’s maybe more acute than we thought it would be,” said Sabean, who interrupted his draft scouting to attend this series after the Giants scored four runs as they were swept in San Diego.
…. Sabean said he has held preliminary trade discussions on a “narrow list” of hitters. He would not name them but acknowledged that the list of hitters publicly known to be available is fairly accurate.
The Nationals are willing to deal first baseman Nick Johnson and the Indians have made infielder/outfielder Mark DeRosa available. Both are potential free agents. Others who could be moved include A’s outfielder Matt Holliday, Texas infielder Hank Blalock and Seattle third baseman Adrian Beltre, whom Sabean is known to like.
Where they play does not matter.
“Wherever we can find a bat, we’ll make the adjustment positionally,” Sabean said. He acknowledged that to swing a deal this early in the season, a team seeking players needs to make an attractive offer, and he is willing to deal young players and prospects.
However, Sabean is not willing to move his best prospects, saying, “If it’s young and potentially up-and-coming impact talent, no. Nobody wants to trade that.”
Of course where they play doesn’t matter. When you field an entire team made up of role players and has beens, any real hitter will immediately play where wherever he normally plays. But is there anyone out there who cares about this team who thinks that Sabean’s gonna get the best of a trade right now? I sure as hell don’t.
Not to mention that the entire framing of this dilemma is flawed from the outset. It is apparent that the team needs to trade to acquire a hitter because the team did not go after any significant free agent hitter in the off-season. It was not apparent that they would be forced to trade a good, young pitcher to acquire a hitter prior to the off-season. After we ended last season with the worst offense in baseball, it was obvious to everyone in baseball who didn’t work for the Giants that the team absolutely had to upgrade the offense. Anyone who knows anything knew this team did not have the offense to compete. They could’ve signed a free agent or three or four.
Instead of solving a known problem, however, they went out and got a shortstop; an old, declining shortstop, to fill a position that was already filled. (Two years ago, we went out and signed a center fielder, an old, declining center fielder, even tough we already had a center fielder)
Now, we’re gonna see Sabean trade Matt Cain for Adrian Beltre, an old, flawed, overpaid player. Beltre, by the way, is currently falling off the face of the earth, running out a cover your eyes awful .214/.246/.306 .552 OPS line.
Only in Sabean’s Bizzaro world could you envision trading a 24-year old starting pitcher –one who has just begun to reach his potential– for a declining, 30-year old third baseman who earns five times as much. Here’s an idea….
STOP PRETENDING THAT THIS TEAM CAN CONTEND!!
Don’t trade good young pitching at all.
The 2008 Giants are three position players –at least– away from being a real team. I wouldn’t trade Cain for A-Rod right now, let alone Adrian Beltre. Be afraid, be very afraid.
UPDATE: Via Musings, Henry Schulman says Cain ain’t being dangled:
…. I have the utmost respect for the reporting ability of my talented friend and San Jose Mercury competitor Andrew Baggarly.
I don’t know if I’m right. I don’t know if he’s right. But the fact is, he wrote a rather jarring paragraph that said the Giants are dangling Matt Cain to other teams to gauge his trade value. I ran that by a very high-level source with the Giants, and he said, “Absolutely false.”
The player he’s supposedly being dangled for is Florida’s Dan Uggla. Uggla is an OK hitter, with good power, but he’s 29 years old, he’s running out a dismal .205/.328/.424 .756 OPS line this season, and he also makes twice what Cain makes. If you look at Cain’s numbers –other than wins and losses– he’s one of the top pitchers in baseball. Uggla’s not even one of the top second basemen in the NL, for crying out loud.
But that’s the kind of deal you’re gonna see Sabean make. An absolutely horrible one.
I’d also like to mention that the clumsy, inept and worthless Adam Dunn is still hitting, with 14 home runs 39 RBI and banging out a stellar .284/.420/.594 1.013 OPS. Yep, the Giants sure don’t need that kind of player.
beats by dre * beats by dre outlet * dr dre beats
Speaking as an A’s fan, maybe it’s because we trade all our good players at some point, but I don’t think anyone should be untouchable. I mean say the Mets offered Wright for Cain, that’s a trade I think you could be justified in making. As the A’s have proven and has been pointed out here, you could have 5 Cy Young in your rotation, but with no offense it won’t matter.
Also, Uncle Joe for what it’s worth, the following is the league average for a nonpitcher hitting in the same parks as Dunn: .266/.345/.424/.770 his line of .284/.421/.599/1.020 outstrips the average by a bunch. Also his OPS+ (adjusted for park factors) is 163. And perhaps it is harping but I think it’s a legitimate question as to why the Giants didn’t even seem to pursue him at all in the off season. Then again not very many teams seemed to be vying for his services. As far as him not coming to play in SF, you make a deal sweet enough, a player will always follow the money. Always. He’s “only” (yes only this is baseball money we’re talking about) making 8M this year, seems like had they wanted to, they Giants could have worked something out to get him into the orange and black. I don’t know if Dunn can keep this up, but so far he’s been having an amazing offensive year, which makes it all the worse, from an outsider looking in, that Sabean didn’t even seem to make a play for him. Especially considering the state of the Giants’ offense. It hasn’t worked out so well, but Beane at least attempted to address some of the offensive woes of the A’s with trading for Holliday, signing Giambi and Nomah and to a lesser extent O Cabrera.
But then again Riccardi, up in Toronto feels the same way as Sabean obviously did. NO DUNN!
The Giants didn’t need Dunn. They have Renteria, Aurilia, Rowand, Zito and Johnson! When the Giants allow the fewest runs in MLB, and still trail the Dodgers (without Manny Ramirez) by 9.5 games before May is even over, they are doing lots of things wrong most of the time.
And they have been doing those things wrong , for a long time. Mostly through Free Agency. Trades are win and lose situations. You have to give up a player to get a player. Somebody wins. Somebody loses. You can’t win them all and even the best traders have bad runs. Understood. The draft is always a risk, but at 30 rounds per year even a turd gets polished once in awhile. When you sign free agents, you lose draft picks. Understand that too. But with F/A there is nobody that you have to give up. It’s the path of least resistance. You negotiate terms with a player agent. The same way Sony Pictures negotiates with a big box office star. Its simply the contract. And prior to Colletti going to LA, Sabean didn’t even have to negotiate the contract.
Its not much more elevated than a company officer working with a head hunter while recruiting a highly productive sales executive. It is not magic or highly difficult. It comes down to wages and working conditions. Period. College coaches are more challenged by the NCAA recruiting and scholarship rules truth be known. In free-agency, you’re not trading one set of skill sets for another. In comparison to actual trades it’s a no brainer. It’s a lot like racing. Whoever spends the most, wins the most, most of the time. The net worth of the Giants partnership is in the BILLIONS! They have wasted millions and still they continue to put together some of the worst F/A signings since the reserve clause was struck down in 1975. And the guy responsible is still responsible. This is where Sabean’s greatest failings are. Can you imagine what the Giants would have been like in the American League East? Yeah. Right.
But back to Dunn and others. Adam Dunn as of Game No.46, on May 29, 2009
.285 BA
.420 OBP
.612 SLG
42 RBI
16 HRs
Does he keep this up through the season? With Johnson, Zimmerman, getting on in front of him at the current rate? Who knows?
Does he finish with 56 HR or 148 RBIs which is what a simple proportional projection is? Nobody knows for sure. But he’s hit exactly 40 HRs, four years running while averaging around 100 RBIs coming into this season. With a career .905 OPS. He probably continues to put up monster numbers, and I will be laughing my ass off the same way folks do whenever Vlad’s lines are looked at after we got similar fables from Sabean and his stooges about why Alou Jr. Finley, Alfonso, Durham, Rowand, Linden, Winn etc were/are all better fits than Vlad or Dunn would have been:
Here’s Vlad’s blasts from the past since he signed with the Angels as a F/A
2004 156 games .989 OPS 39 HR
2005 141 games .959 OPS 32 HR
2006 156 games .934 OPS 33 HR
2007 150 games .950 OPS 27 HR
2008 143 games .886 OPS 27 HR
And for all the propagandized mush heads, who believe all the baseless speculation and agenda-driven gossip that passes for “news” put out by ESPN and their fake experts and repeated by their butt-sniffing followers.
You know. The ones who warned all of us off of Dunn (and Vlad before him) and wanted us to dump Bonds and not pursue Manny, and spoke out about how the Giants were going to be able to make a big run at the Dodgers now that the one-trick pony Dodgers didn’t have Manny.
And then they went on about how Manny being Manny was going to ruin the Dodgers chances. And how his failed piss test was going to sink the franchise. And probably by the time Manny served his 50 day suspension, the Dodgers would have been kidnapped by Somali Pirates and it would all be Manny’s fault and not even Jack Bauer could fix things.
Well, here’s a snapshot of the last 3 weeks since Manny’s been sipping umbrella drinks poolside resting up for the likely second half stroll to the Play-offs–unless their bullpen just implodes. Just for the record.
On May 8th, Manny gets booted.
The Dodgers are 21-10. and 11 games over 500 with a .677 win percentage
Sabean’s Giants are 15-13 and 4.5 games back
On May 29th without Manny and a little over a month remaining on his R and R:
The Dodgers are 34-15 19 games over 500 .694 win percentage
The Giants are 23-23 and a princely 9.5 games in arrears having been passed by the Padres…who tried to unload Jake Peavy until he invoked his no trade clause. The Giants can’t even beat teams that are trying to give up!
This what happens when you have a plan B, in addition to Plan A like the Dodgers.
The Giants did bring up Jesus Guzman and Kevin Frandsen. I guess that’s what you call Plan WTF.
The USS Caine sails on.
+mia,
Totally agree with your assessment of Sabean and his Free Agency blunders. But, power does not equate to wins. For example…two of the first place teams in the NL(Dodgers and Cards) are near the bottom in hr totals. Only the Gigantes and Pirates are lower. The Dodgers have only 34 and the Cards 33. You do not hear the complaints about these teams lack of power…because they hit and play fundamental ball…which equals runs…which equates to wins. The Dodgers may be as good or better w/o Manny…crazy as that may seem.
My point is…the Gigantes main problem is they do not hit well enough and play “small ball” to compensate for the lack of power…and they are not fundamentally sound. They play in a yard which rewards gap tp gap hitters and speed…and since they play half a season there…then build a team to suit your home field.
I do not know if Dunn would have been the answer or not…but there was no need for Renteria when you have Burriss. Going after O. Hudson to play 2b would have been a better move…or anything for that matter.
+mia,
Forgot about the Mets…they only have 32…3rd worst in NL and they’re in first. So all first place teams are near the bottom in power stats.
I don’t think I meant to imply that the Giants primary problem was soley a result of homerun offensive power. And as you write, the Giants have little power (neither gap to gap nor homerun) with a pathetic SLG% of .365 (leading only the Yankee AAAA affliate across the Bay) and little small ball abilities either, ranking 29th in OBP at .315. And of course they are next to last in runs scored (in front of Seattle only in this category)
Conversely the Dodgers lead the NL in runs scored, are 4th in slugging, 2nd in OPS and first in On base percentage. The Dodgers are excellent at working over opposing pitchers. The Giants are the exact opposite. It is the difference in the kinds of players the Dodgers seem to develop and sign versus the kinds of players the Giants develop and sign.
My point is that winning baseball comes from the combination of power and getting guys on base in front of the power. This is something the Giants haven’t done in years, because they don’t sign guys in free agency that have those skills and because their minor league development program has not developed those kinds of players since Bob Lurie sold the club to Magowan.
Here are the top OPS teams followed by their position in the Standings.
Team – Div Standing
1. NYY 1
2. TEX 1
3. BOS 2
4. PHI 2
5. TAM 4
6. TOR 3
7. LAD 1
8. MIN 2
9. NYM 1
10. CLE 5
So of the Six Division Leaders in MLB, 4 of them rank in the top 10 in OPS.
The Top Players in OPS are thus:
1 Raul Ibanez PHI
2 Joey Votto CIN
3 Albert Pujols STL
4 Justin Morneau MIN
5 Adam Jones BAL
6 Evan Longoria TAM
7 Justin Upton ARI
8 Jason Bay BOS
9 Miguel Cabrera DET
10 Jason Bartlett TAM
Eight of those 10 guys all play for contenders. This is no accident. It is what contending teams strive for year in and year out. High OPS guys. As many as you can develop and as many as you can trade for and as many as you can sign in free agency. High OPS guys produce runs. They produce more fucking runs than low OPS guys. Even low OPS guys with grit and savvy and veteran presence. The OBJECT OF THE GAME is to score more fucking runs then your opponent. Brian Sabean does not fucking understand this obviously. I’ve been looking at box scores since I could read, and nowhere in the final score is veteran presence, grit and savvy mentioned.
Just for shit and giggles, the highest ranking Giant in OPS? Pablo Sandoval. He is ranked 78th at 818.
Salt in the Wound Award. Pedro Feliz is ranked 74th at 824 and actually has a higher OBP (376) than anybody on the Giants current roster. Fred Lewis at 370.
Captain Queeg is still no closer to finding his strawberries.
So I read at first that the Giants may assess the trade market for Cain. Great, that’s something a good GM should do – assess the market for his players. Cain isn’t replaceable, but our offense really is THAT bad that I could see trading him for a hitter being a move a good, smart GM makes.
Then I read the list we may be looking into includes Mark DeRosa, Nick Johnson, Matt Holiday, Beltre or Hank Blalock? What?! You’ve got to be kidding me. That’s what sets Sabean apart from the rest of the pack. While others would be looking for a guy like Ryan Braun or Dustin Pedroia – good, young players (with possibly a couple of prospects in the trade to even things out), Sabean is looking at the likes of Dan Uggla or Mark DeRosa? What a joke.
harping about dunn is the same as harping about manny…neither were ever going to come here
i dont care what dunns stats are…the east is filled with band box parks that inflate a players stats
this team cannot and will not compete this year…so to make a trade that destroys one of the best rotations in the majors is just silly
madbaum and alderson are a year away
so you wait till next st to make a trade
and i so do love the rebuilding mode this team is in
just sent down a kid so that richie can keep stinking up the joint
totally brilliant
Stupider and Stupider
Today, after days and weeks of fanfare, anticipation and hype, the Giants called up utitility infielder Jesus Guzman from AAA where he is hitting the snot out of the ball–allegedly. They give him one start and a couple of pinch hit appearances over a period of a week. He goes 1 for 10 with a strikeout and gets sent down. He makes the league minimum.
The Giants send Backup catcher Steve Holm to Fresno and as a result have no backup for Molina and end up having to call a guy up from AA and fly him in on the Midnight Special to emergency catch, after the tubby Sandoval stretches a muscle in his throwing arm. Perhaps mixing in a salad once in awhile will lessen the constant strain on the musculoskeletal system of the corpulent one?
Meanwhile 38 year old Rich Aurillia is who OPSing barely over .400 with 13 ks in 65 plate appearances and is 0 for 7 days the same week that Guzman is here continues to pull down his $1million salary and waste time in and out of the batters box with fake bunts, staring stupidly at cockshots down the middle and looking for signs with 2 outs 2 strikes and nobody on trailing by 3 runs.
Besides the obvious headline failure multi-year FREE AGENT contracts in 2007-08-09 of Zito, Rowand, and Renteria that are multiple millions of dollars down the toilet, how does Sabean justify the $3.5, $4.5 and $1.0 million FREE AGENT contracts of Aurillia over the same period?
That Sabean is even allowed to discuss possible player transactions on behalf of the Giants is an insult.
Some player may have gotten more attention, but no player got more money.
As an aside, has any player gotten more attention for playing well above his head for a single season than Adrian Beltre?
Brady Anderson?
Kelly Gruber?
Ken Caminiti? Zoilo Versalles?
Kam Fong as Chin Ho?
I agree with the (other) Mark – one has to realistic that this isn’t about “improving the team” it’s about “looking like you’re improving the team”.
Nobody’s going to make any real difference unless it’s Albert Pujols or similar – which you aren’t gonna get for Matt Cain. Wouldn’t be in the slightest bit surprised if one of the above scenarios happens, though. More likely to win this particular year with Matt Holliday than with Matt Cain? Probably. When is Sabean’s contract up? Oh, yeah, this year too.
Worst thing that could happen to the Giants is to make that trade, win the division, get somewhere in the playoffs, and Sabean gets a new contract. That’s what the man is banking on to save his job. Okay, the team ain’t so hot right now – but stupid to make it even worse in years to come. That’s how we got here, folks.
Make the playoffs?!?
I appreciate your input, Marc, but you’re out of your mind if you think this team is making the playoffs if they trade Cain for Matt Holiday. This team wouldn’t make the playoffs if they traded Cain for Albert Pujols.
isn’t that what I said?
The rumors are bad enough. They still don’t change the fact that our free agent signings in recent years have been Zito, Rowand, Winn, Howry, and you-get-the-idea. Brian Sabean isn’t Theo Epstein! Thanks for the effort, you made some good decisions, a hell of a lot of dumb ones, your time is done, the game has moved past you, go away now…oh, and take Bochy with you too.
John,+mia,Kent,& Marc,
Great blog John…keep the heat on Sabean.
Cain is untouchable. Period. No sane person with baseball knowledge would even consider such a move. There are only five pitchers of his calibur in the NL…if that. I’ve always been afraid of Sabean….aka Gen Custer. WE all know this is Sabeans work of art…this current team. Hopefully, there is one person who Sabean reports to…that has a clue…and realizes this is a perfect opportunity to give Sabean his walking papers. I would like to think somewhere in this organization someone realizes Cain brings far more to the table than Sabean. If not…then they are more retarded than +mia states. I have no idea how a guy like Sabean keeps his job…since he rode Bonds coat tails for over ten years. What is Sabeans record w/o Bonds? Sabean and all his flaws have been exposed to the whole baseball community for some time now…say adios once and for all to this POS. He would run a Little League team into the ground.
Sorry +mia…I’ve tried watching this week for a couple innings this week…but watching the unwatchable is not enlightening…at least when it involves the Gigantes. Listening to Dave Flemming is even worse.
Totally agree with all the above posts…and most have stated what I would have said…so not to be redundant…I will just make one final comment.
CLEAN FUCKING HOUSE NOW….and make Cain,Lincecum, and Sanchez untouchable.
This team is a joke.
We’re doomed. We have to pretend we are “competitive” so the turnstiles keep turning. I’m a lifelong fan–I’d rather us lose with a crap team of youngsters than a crap team of has-beens. At least the youngsters have “upside.” I think the fan base is willing to put up with some poor teams if they feel there is a future, that the farm clubs and draft picks will pay off at some point. But with Sabes in full trade-mode, I’m with John: “be very afraid.”
What I love, L-O-V-E, is reading quotes from “That Idiot” (yes, yes you are Brian) where he speaks as if the current Giants roster is something that just happened, like he showed up recently and was left with this profitable franchise of ill-fitting AAAA dudes. The Roster? Oh yeah dipshit, YOU (and the hacks around you) constructed it! Jesus how many people are in Sabean’s back pocket that he can get away with such horseshit!?!?!?!?!
Come on Giants, let’s have another game vs. Seattle where we make their pitchers look world-class. What a joke…
Afraid? More like laughing my ass off on the one side and feeling homicidal on the other.
The 2005 jerk-off season continues. Just about all of MLB can use pitching, including the Giants who other than Cain and Lincecum have no reliable starters to reliably count on. To even float the idea that they have a surplus of starting pitching is insane. They are in no fucking position whatsoever to deal a guy like Cain. None.
Like you said, anybody who watches this game even casually knows that one player nor even two players is going to make a fucking difference. The Giants don’t have the horses to trade. They had plenty of time and opportunity in the off-season to acquire any number of free agents, even with the crippling contracts of Zito and Rowand. Trading Cain for what will be a lesser player than what they could have signed in Free Agency just goes to show you how retarded the Giants front office has become.
They are 9 games out of 1st place and under .500 before the end of May while playing a bunch of patsies. This is as far out of first place as they have been in almost 20 years (1991) on this date.
Admiral Orville Redenbacher needs to clean out Captain Queeg’s locker, and dump Bochy, Lansford, Righetti and the rest of the stale over the hill gang populating the front office, the dugout, and the clubhouse over the side. No sane person lets the guy who runs his baseball operations into the ground keep his job. Especially when the whole baseball world thinks your team is a laughing stock and is ripe for the picking.
I meant it when I said that the Giants are the new, Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Washington, Mariners, A’s. Insane dysfunctional baseball organizations that never have a chance to win jack shit because they are run by despotic old rich farts who are more concerned with patronization and nepotism than they are with winning.
Letting Sabean continue to captain this 19th century garbage scow filled with the refuse of the Rowands, Zito, Johnson, Roberts, Renteria, Aurillia, and all the other oafs is suicidal.
Whatever he pulls, you can count on any deal he makes will have Baer’s input…meaning “q” rating to keep those turnstiles turning. I can just see a Matt Holiday or Nick Johnson or some other such short-timer. Just stupid.