Well done, gentlemen. Very incisive and thoughtful.
As for the negativity, all I can say in my defense is this:
I write from inspiration. When I read or see something that drives me, makes me want to say something, I say it. The “negativity” you see here is simply a reflection, a mirror of the team that has been run out for most of the last four or five seasons.
You want to read positive? Go back and read my posts from 2002, when we went to the Serious. Read what I've written about Barry Bonds, or, for that matter, Tim Lincecum. Or, more to the point, go read the fucking Chronicle. You want pablum, you want me to play nice? I'm not interested.
I'm interested in honesty. Who cares about how well the pitchers are doing when our hitters are so God-Almighty horrible? Like MIA says, our great young pitchers are gonna sign long-term deals with us? Why, exactly? We know that Lincecum has already rebuffed the team's initial attempts to discuss such a deal. What makes you think tomorrow will be different, when we have so much evidence to the contrary, right in front of us?
Our prospect-rich system is gonna produce great players? How, exactly, does anyone “know” that?
They don't. No one can predict major league success with that kind of precision. Sandoval will or won't turn into our own version of Vlad. Posey will become a great catcher, hit for average and get on-base and call a great game, or he'll blow out a knee, or he won't be good enough by thismmuch, and the Giants will still be waiting.
Meanwhile, we knew coming into the season that the pitching would be good enough. We knew that getting a player or two who actually is a major league hitter would have made a huge difference. We knew that we would lose games 2-1 and 3-2 all year long because of our lack of offense, and all we did was sign Renteria. And why? Because we didn't have the money. And, now –twenty games into the season, by the way– we're already being fed Chronicle puff pieces about how the Giants might not be able to acquire any real hitters at the deadline because of a lack of revenue. Is
anyone surprised?
When you pour tens of millions of dollars on the ground, year after year, obviously, you won't have the money to sign real players; a story we've been hearing for the last ten seasons. I've listed, again and again, the ridiculous, albatross contracts that have hamstrung this team since I've been covering them. You think we could use the combined $26 million dollars we paid Neifi Perez and Dave Roberts over the last five seasons? Or the $18 million dollars we gave the already on his way into retirement Kirk Reuter? How about the $15 million we threw on the ground at Steve Finley's feet? The $28 million we wasted on Edgardo Alfonzo? The list of players who have gone straight from the Giants into retirement just over the last five seasons alone should give all of our young pitchers pause when they consider signing a long-term deal with the club.
Positives? You find 'em. What I see is this: In the last four seasons alone, I can find almost $100 million dollars that Brian Sabean has given to guys who were out of baseball the day the Giants released them.
UPDATE: As if on cue, David Pinto wonders where the Giants should hit the Giants best hitter, Bengie Molina:
…. Bengie Molina helped the Giants to a 6-2 victory over the Cubs with a 2 for 4 day, including his fifth home run, a three-run shot. Bengie’s now hitting .304, but with a .302 OBA. That’s possible because he has no walks, no hit by pitches, but three sacrifice flies. On the other hand, he’s slugging .554, which is good for a number four hitter. Twelve of his 28 hits have gone for extra bases.
Where should a team bat a player like this? He power is valuable, but he’s an out machine despite hitting .300. I would think the right spot for him would be sixth or seventh, depending on the makeup of the team.
Exactly. The Giants have Molina batting cleanup, and on a good team, he'd be sixth or seventh. That sums up Brian Sabean's failures more eloquently than any rant I could come up with.
Well said Harold.
OK then let’s look at Billy Beane: how woudl Andre Ethier and Carlos penal look now in green and gold? Or how about Brian Cashman? Carl Pavano ring any bells? How about Omar Minaya; 36 million for Oliver Perez? How’s gary matthews Jr doing in Anaheim by LA? etc etc etc
Scott, B, Chip, Parker good points. Harold? I know it sounds like some of us, particularly me, are pissing in your corn flakes. It takes that kind of excessive verbosity sometimes to get people’s attention on a different side of the story. On a side that is contrary and oftentimes at odds with those in media and ownership. The side that is suspicious of the actions, and opinions of those who have an agenda that may not include winning championships as their number one goal.
For media, the only benefit from winning championships, is that more people read, hear and see their blathering due to heightened public awareness, which translates into more money for them. Like the predatory sharks they are, they are constantly swimming in search of a wider audience in the face of a disbursed market base. As if their number one goal in life is to have the dubious privilege of sitting across from Skip Bayless or having one of their “scoops” scrolled across the bottom of ESPN.
Ownership likes championships when it increases, attendance, TV revenue, and puff piece stories that feed their egos. Winning championships is secondary to them. Revenue Sharing via the excessive payroll tax, has made winning even less of a necessity. Wire a lizard like Larry Baer and ask him if he could only have one choice:
“A championship and a small negative bottom line”, or
“A farce and a big bottom line.”
Is there any doubt in view of the last 5 years what route he would chose?
Think about it.
An organization can make millions, have a hassle-free relationship with the media, and return to the Emperor Selig Hairpiecius’ good graces. And in the process convince the average SF Gate/Chronicle ESPN drooler that they are underdogs when in reality they are simply redefining the Pier 39 experience in a baseball setting, laughing all the way to their own personal tax-payer bailed out bank.
Or he can loosen the cash-hounds, pay guys like Kent to return, pay to retool, and renegotiate year after year, and provide an environment for an in-house meritocracy such as existed under Dusty Baker and Roger Craig and the early days of Brian Sabean. The organization can cultivate their relationships with the MLPA, and rebuild the reputation that they once had of being a “players organization.
This process and strategy requires gumption, courage and persistence. For they risk the wrath of the great Satan, and the constant brunt of the Bruce Jenkins, Mike Lupica’ s and every other media and government twit with an axe to grind in the process of pursuing excellence.
I don’t think its guys like Larry Baer and Orville Redenbacher are up for this. Guys who have had their whole lives of luxury spoon-fed to them and have never had to compete to survive. They don’t stand a chance against the Steinbrenners or Loirias of the world. Guys who learned how to compete and scrabble to get on top, and more importantly, stay on top? Does anyone really think the Giants organization has the stomach for this? Who is fooling whom, here?
What John brought up is painfully true and exposed the Ownership Group and Management for what they really are, The Giants turned their back on Barry Bonds after the 2007 season…when he was still putting up monster numbers. To the detriment of winning. I heard and read more excuses for this travesty from media and their foolish disciples than I did from ownership itself! PT Barnum was right. Just remember what a former colleague of Larry Baer remarked: “His epitaph should read; nothing important ever happened without me.”
Do you really think these things go unnoticed by players? By guys like Scott Boras, Adam Katz, Jeff Borris, Wasserman Media Group and the rest of the over 300 player agents registered with the MLPA?
If you can see your way clear to accept even a few of these points, than you will understand why I have no patience, time nor interest in playing Junior General Manager, or discussing at any great length the possible fortunes/misfortunes of some kids in A ball. I don’t give a shit how good your sailors are, if the Captain of your ship is and egomaniac named Queeg, you’re dead in the water. In the Giants world Garlic fries=Strawberries. How ironic.
Well said.
I’m as skeptical as the next guy, provided the next guy isn’t you, but I like my doubt peppered with a bit of evidence. Your ad hominem attacks are fun to read, but there’s no meat on those pretty bones. So you say Boras won’t bring free agents to SF; did he come to that conclusion after the Zito deal? Any evidence to back up that claim, or just conjecture? Bonds was dumped because the lawsuit and the steroid cloud and the slow-moving legs in left didn’t seem like a good idea anymore; they weren’t going to win with him anyway, so it was time to move on.
I don’t dispute there’s bottom-line element to baseball decisions (made by all owners everywhere; ours aren’t all that special) but I don’t agree the Gs aren’t trying to win. Or that the character flaws of Neukom and Baer will prevent them from winning. I don’t think you know enough about either of them, or the owners you’re comparing them to, to make that sort of judgment. I think you’re speculating. Wildly, to put it mildly.
First time reading this blog. Nothing like a good place to vent. I’m listening to RJ getting destroyed right now. I believe that the main gripe comes down to one simple thing: value. Take Randy Johnson. The Giants are probably going to get decent numbers out of him through the course of the whole season; but who the hell wants to spend millions for decent or average? Give me a Santana or Haren or 3-5 decent set-up men and prospects. Zito is not even worth mentioning. Rowand; I could put all starting outfielders in MLB in a hat and it wouldn’t matter who I draw, they’re better than Rowand and odds are they are getting paid way less. Renteria(SS)+Burriss(2B)=8.5 million dollars; Burriss(SS)+Frandsen(2B)=800,000. Do we honestly believe there would be much difference? Like Chip said it’s about the product and in this case there is a clear disconnect between the value of the players and the cost. The payroll is backwards. Our best players make the least money. In essence we are a bottom shelf team with top shelf prices and that’s tough to stomach.
Welcome aboard…taking all comments…nothing is out of play here.. Feel free to take your best shots. In professional sports…not just baseball…salary rarely equals performance. +mia and myself have been saying for a couple years that the Gigantes Mgmt is more concerned with image and concepts…rather than championships. Winning is secondary. Any time you can be profitable without a good product or servcie…there is little pressure to change. I’ve bitched about this for too many years now. The Bay Area fan obviously has a larger disposable income than most baseball markets.
But…the Gigantes can win this year….even though they are a boring, and at times unwatchable product. I watch a lot of other teams play. There are only four or five teams better than the Gigantes in the NL and three play in the same division. I know many find this laughable…but, the wild card is attainalbe this year…maybe even the division(Manny’s suspension). One major addition to the line-up and a couple minor tweaks…and this team can win 90. I’m not concerned who can help us next year or two years from now…seize the moment…and play with a sense of urgency every game. Win now…or go home. That’s how the business world is I live in.
A note to Harold…most people follow this site because of John…who most times goes over the top with his feelings. I find most on this site to be knowledgeable Gigantes fans…or ex-fans. +mia,Unc Joe,B…and others. This is a site where anything goes…and is my ten minute therapy to rant on whatever is the flavor of the day. OBM goes against the grain….and is a welcome relief to MSM.
From my watching around the league…the Yanks may get run out of the Big Apple by the All-Star game. They are getting soundly booed on a daily basis…and I do not see much relief for them. That new stadium is a launching pad…and with their pitching…big time trouble. KC is legit and should win the Central.
We will be 12-0 after today in games we score first. Score early…(early runs)and this team will win. Not trying to be a homer…but anything is possible this year. Never seen more parity and poor play in the first month in years. I remind people daily…were in a division with the D-Bags,Rocks, and Pads. So…90 should not be considered unreasonable.
Even though I bitch about Sabean and Bochy as much as anyone…and Rowand even more…I want the attitude to be concerned more about what it’s going to take to win this year…w/o giving up too much…and keeping the pitching intact.
Baseball is a strange game…
Forbes magazing reported that the Giants had nearly $200 million in revenue last year and made a net profit of over $22 million. They also have one of the lowest debt to value ratios of any team in MLB- so that bullshit about the stadium payments limiting their ability to sign big name players is just that-bullshit.
That’s with attendance down last year, and falling again this year. That’s profit even with the terrible contracts of Zito, Rowand, Winn, and Roberts. They spent $25mm in the offseason on free agents and the only bat they signed was Renteria which everyone in baseball knew was a terrible signing. Oh wait, almost everyone in baseball except the bearded one. Meanwhile Dunn is killing the ball in DC for almost exactly the same money as Renteria is getting- good choice there Sabes. BTW, just as a laugh, the Giants will be paying Zito $20,000,000 in 2013.
Fans come out to see winning baseball, and the Giants haven’t provided that since 2004. They’re not Florida yet, but with their first announced crowd of under 30,000 since the park opened 9 years ago, and a non-sold out Dodgers series ( which was always an automatic sell-out until this year avergaing only about 32k) they’re slipping fast and its not the economy- its the on-field product.
Posey is in A ball, and while he’s a stud, Gillespie & Villalona are also in A ball and who knows when they will or might make an impact. There’s no other bats in the system. Ishikawa, Shierholz…not exactly the 2nd coming or Longoria & Votto. So what’s the plan? We all know the answer- hope to get to .500 and sneak into the play-offs where “anything can happen”. That’s not a plan, its a wish….and Sabean has to be fired the day the season ends, and he can take Bochy with him.
The Giants payroll last year was $76.6 million, down from $90 million in the previous 3 years. This year it’s estimated to be $82.6 million, so combined with the numbers Chip gave us that shows they definitely should have had money to spend on someone if there was someone they wanted. If they tell you otherwise I would think that’s a bad sign, that the owners are clamping down on payroll some. I’m under the impression Dunn wouldn’t even consider playing for the Giants, since our park kills him, but I’m not exactly an insider or anything so I really don’t know what I’m talking about. Assuming Dunn would consider SF if the price was right, clearly he would be helping our team significantly right now. I just don’t know if I’m ready to make that assumption and blame Sabean for that particular non-signing.
As for no other bats in the system, I don’t think that’s true. Our system has a decent amount of guys with potential, they just aren’t the blue chip prospects Posey and Villalona are. BA has us ranked the #5 farm system in baseball, with the majority of our top 30 prospects according to them being position players. Most of them will never be significant contributors, but there’s a decent chance at least a couple of them do. Rodriguez, Adrianza, Culberson, Fairley (though his stats have been awful), Crawford, Noonan, Ford, Neal, Kieschnick, Martinez-Esteve, Guzman are all position players with potential (in order of what minor league team they currently play for). Most of them are still in the lower tiers of our system though, so who knows if they’ll ever develop, but I like our chances with so many guys with actual potential.
Let’s not forget that to accept that players just won’t come to SF is to accept failure. Players will or won’t come here based on a million things, how your team is perceived around the league, how much money you spend, the team’s chances of contending, how the team treats star players….
How do the fucking Giants rank among these kinds of measurements?
The team is perceived poorly around the league. They completely left Bonds to hang out to dry when the BALCO bullshit started, ignored Bonds’ negative impacts when he was here, and then they turned their backs on him the minute he gave them what they wanted, the home run record. The handle most of the players needs and issues poorly, they manipulate and control the media, they overpay for mediocrity –weakening their credibility– they misallocate their resources terribly….
I could go on and on. There is no doubt that the perception around the league is that the Giants are a minor league organization, one more interested in controlling how people view them than they are in actually BEING successful. There is no doubt that the team makes little to no effort to make superstars feel important or wanted.
And so, when superstars tell media boneheads they don’t want to play there, the management team can then tell everyone that THAT is the reason they can’t sign the players they really need…. They don’t want to come here. Horseshit.
Good points. I dunno if it applies to Dunn or not, but go back to 2007 and neither Carlos Lee nor Soriano had any interest in coming to the Giants, McGowan panicked and we ended up with Zito, who we only got after we offered $25-30 million more than anyone else. Lee and Soriano probably wouldn’t have been worth the money, but it would have given us a real major league hitter and we sure as hell would be much better off with one of them instead of Zito.
Derek Lee would have solved a lot of problems when he became available from the Marlins a couple years ago. His whole family lives in the Sacramento Area and he would have loved to be witin a 100 miles from home. I know his Dad(Leon)…who lives in Folsom…and runs a hitting clinic for kids. My son was in it for a couple years. I asked him about why Derek signed with Chicago…and he claims the Gigantes really never seemed serious about getting him. So, it may be more mgmt failures…than players not wanting to play here. Carlos Lee chose Houston…and I’m sure he’s second guesing that move…for a variety of reasons.
I bashed Zito unmercifully last year…and we all know his contract is a joke…and a reflection of panic on the Gigantes Mgmt. I’d love to get Sabean at a hold-em table. I’m looking for Zito to win 15 this year and try to salage what is left of a horrible contract.
I’m sure there are plenty of quality players who wouldn’t mind wearing orange and black…it’s a whole other story whether the Gigantes mgmt has the ability to get a deal done.
Manny is gone for 50…and they will not be the same w/o him. Everything changes now…With our pitching…anything is possible.
Incisive? Thoughtful? “Neukom sucks because he went to Dartmouth and wears a bow tie.” Is that one of the insights we are supposed to come here for? This blog is essentially a mutual admiration society of naysayers who dwell on failure and ignore the positive. After two starts, Randy Johnson was a failure (“I told you so”). Judging someone after two starts seems the very opposite of “thoughtful.” You dwell on Sabean’s bad deals like he’s the only GM who ever made mistakes (Andruw Jones? Juan Pierre?) Does anyone give him credit for Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Wilson, Sandoval, Molina, Winn?
They’re not a great team, they can’t hit, and they won’t win this year. Some of it is Sabean’s fault and some is just the normal ebb and flow of fortune. You want to rip owners who are fleecing their customers, look across the bay.
Harold,
I agree that there are those that just shred and rip negativity on this site. Myself included at times. Just part of being passionate for the game. But, I also give credit where it is due and am tired of the band aid approach to position players on the Gigantes. I’m eating crow big time on Renteria…and hope he continues to prove me wrong. If we treated our young position players the same as we nurture our pitchers, we’d be fine…I could deal with the growing pains. Just commit and stick to a plan.
Where I disagree with most who post here…is that we can win this year. Even with a below average hitting club. This is a year where there are many average teams…and many of those have horrible pitching. I’ve been saying all year that the wild card is attainable. With our pitching, and division we play in…90 is not an unreasonable figure.
I can deal with the power outage…just not poor fundamentals. Play small ball and the speed game. We are 11-0 when we score first. Play for an early lead…and shorten the game. This staff will hold leads…just play a style to score early. I like Winn…and he will turn it around. If he were hitting…at least two more wins. I’ve never been a fan of Rowand…so be it. I know I’ve made him into a whipping boy on many occasions. He’s an average hitter with below average speed who k’s too much. I’m tougher on Rowand…because Schierholz would be a better fit for the Gigantes in the outfield, and nobody plays a better right field than Winn…so Rowand is expendable.
Good pitching beats good offense. Pitching in baseball is equivalent to defense in football. Just look what the Baltimore Ravens have done over the years with a marginal offense at best. Look at the Dodger teams in the 60′s.
The Gigantes can win this year with a few minor changes…this staff can…and will dominate if we get them “early runs”.
With Zito back in the fold…anything is possible.
Just my opinions…and I could be wrong.
Harold,
I have no idea where you read the Dartmouth comment, it certainly didn’t come from me. And as for being thoughtful about Johnson, well, here’s what I “thought”:
He’s 45-years old and coming off two mediocre seasons out of his last four. I “thought” his age and injury history pretty much guaranteed that he’d be inconsistent and injury prone at best.
So, where’s he at now?
Two great games, three crappy games, and a skipped start. I don’t know, that seems pretty much like what I “thought” he’d do.
Harold, I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but the last few posts have lead to some thoughtful debate on this site. I don’t think you realize where the anger/frustration towards the Giants comes from. With the resources and fanbase the Giants have they should NEVER go through the stretch of losing they’re currently in. It’s understandable that some of the more intelligent fans are frustrated by it – we want to see a winning team and Brian Sabean has not produced one for us in a long time, and even then you can argue it was almost 100% because of Bonds.
By the way, using the Dodgers mistakes as an example of other GM’s mistakes doesn’t help your point – after all, who trained Colletti? Oh yeah, Brian Sabean.
I agree with most of your points John, and if payroll was the reason why we couldn’t sign a real impact player, that’s a load of bullshit. My view is that player that we wish the Giants had signed didn’t necessarily exist. Tex would have been great for the first couple years of his contract, but down the road he’d be weighing the team down like Zito is now. Dunn didn’t seem willing to play at AT&T. Manny obviously is better than any of our outfielders, the only problem is as long as Winn gets his act together, him and Lewis are our two best players, and the upgrade Manny provides probably isn’t worth nearly $45 million. My basic point is this – you can find $100 million Sabean wasted – whoever the Giants signed this offseason would have just added to that total, and even though Renteria’s overpaid, our SS’s last year were so completely awful, the upgrade he provides might actually be worth most of the money we’re paying him. Sometimes the smartest move is not to make a move, in hindsight we’d be better off if Sabean had done that more often in the past.
“Our prospect-rich system is gonna produce great players? How, exactly, does anyone “know” that?”
We don’t, what we do know is a prospect-rich system is a hell of a lot better than the prospect-bare system we used to have! And you have to admit, it seems to be necessary, even for the Yankees, to have a core of homegrown players if you want to have a sustained, winning team.