Here’s what Fischum says:
Mia – you’re just like all the other armchair GM’s out there who do nothing but bitch and moan. So what’s your solution? Let’s hear it. What did you expect, one year of re-building and the Giants would be WS contenders? The fact is, Renteria isn’t blocking anyone in the minors (hence the 2 year deal) and Randy Johnson would be a nice addition at the back end of the rotation for one year giving Alderson and Bumgarner some more experience in the minors.
Well, first off, Renteria is “blocking” someone, he’s blocking Emmanuel Burriss, who may still be a real shortstop. And no one here — or at least no one who is making the same argument as I am– is saying we think the Giants hsould be contending for a World Series berth. I am saying that Renteria is a waste of resources. That the $10 million could be spent, should be spent, improving the offense.
And again, I hear how Randy Johnson would shore up the back of our rotation, and that makes me wonder….
The strength of this team is supposed to be our starting pitching, so why the hell would we be spending money on a 45-year old pitcher? Not to mention, that if you are talking about shoring up your startng rotation, then you must be thinking about contending. And if you are thinking about contending, THIS TEAM NEEDS OFFENSE!!!!!!!
But, I digress….
Anyway, here’s a couple of alternative “solutions”
1. Leave Burriss at short and give Renteria’s $10 million to Adam Dunn to play first base. He’ll only hit about 50 home runs playing half his games at PacBell, walk 150 times, and more than make up –way more– for whatever boost everyone thinks Renteria was gonna give us over Burriss.
2. Get a contending team to take Dave Roberts off our hands, and then take the savings –along with the money you don’t spend on Renteria– and make a run — a real run– at Texeira. That’s $17 million right there, I guarantee you the team can find $3 million more. I mean, they’re talking about landing the Unit, who will command no less than $10 milion per. Then plug in the young guys everyone keeps talking about, and maybe you have a contender for real.
That’s just off the top of my head, and doesn’t include any trade ideas. I’m not arguing that Renteria isn’t better than Burriss, that he isn’t an upgrade at short; I’m saying that instead of throwing $10 million dollar deals at guys who are little more than established, league-average players, Sabean could get creative, and make something really happen.
10 Backtalkers
As I showed below both your suggestions are not projected to improve the Giants offense by as much as the signing of Renteria to replace last year’s assortment of SSs is projected to. Renteria is again projected to outperform the SS PAs from last year that he replaces by .228 in OPS. Neither Adam Dunn or even Mark Teixeria are projected to outperform the Giants 1B PAS from last year by this much.
Further, as I also discussed below we have no real chance to get Mark Texeria. He wants the East Coast and is only likely using the Angels as a stocking horse to get the dollars he wants on the coast he wants. He will most likely end up with the RedSox but if not them then he will go to the Nationals or Orioles if maxing his dollars is more important to him joining a proven winner. It is pretty clear that the most important thing to him is to be on the same coast that he lives on. Again, our shot was CC and we choose not to take it.
Finally, have you watched any of Adam Dunn’s ABs at AT&T? Last year he hit a couple bombs that might have gone 440 ft anywhere else to triples alley and was completely and totally pissed off that they landed in Randy Winn’s glove. There is no way I can believe that he has any interest in making our park his home park.
The odds that another team will take on Dave Roberts’ $6 million contract for 2009 are roughly equal to the odds that People Magazine will name Dick Cheney The Sexiest Man Alive. The only way we get rid of Roberts is to take on another team’s bad contract, which = no savings.
With respect to the Renteria signing, I agree this is a bad move if it blocks Burriss long-term. However it may indicate that either: 1) the Giants don’t think Burris is ready to play full-time in the ML, and/or, 2) they think Burriss is best-suited for 2B. So I am ambivalent about this move. One the bright side, paying for two years of a mediocre Renteria beats paying for five years of a mediocre Rowand…
At least John’s suggestion are a break from the norm. A norm of viewing all things orange and black in a vacuum, independent of the machinations of the rest of MLB. A norm of being satisfied with the status quo of losing, nonperformance, overpricing, misinforming, and the entire gamut of schmuckitude. The Giants are, have been, and are almost certain to continue to be, one of the worst offensive teams in MLB. Competing against inferior competition against the Dodgers and three one-time expansion teams in the NL West. And they have been this bad for over 4 years now. And Brian Sabean is still employed?
Blind loyalty to a professional franchise in the Scott Boras era of free-agency and rental players, is to simply align oneself to the vagaries of an ever unstable roster as determined by faceless, unaccountable front office wankers. This is tolerated by most “fans” if the team wins. They are willing to trade-off player allegiances to favorite in exchange for a winning team. I am of course not referring to those whose primary concern is an ample supply of quiche, merlot , garlic fries and a reliable wi-fi connection.
But what the Giants have been peddling since 2002 (at least) is the illusion of winning. Giants Management’s constant referencing of “meaningful games played”. Of course they play meaningful games in terms of the NL West Standings. Its just that the games they play and the way they play is marginal MLB ball at best. “Meaningful games played” is like saying we lead the league in winning percentage when holding the lead after 10 innings. A pseudo-statistic only marginally less intelligent than the so-called “quality-start”. or “hold”. But if you have watched these jack-assed, inept pie-fillers play against talented, confident, teams over the past years, you cannot help but be disgusted. An offense personified by Rich Aurilia stomping out of the box down the third base line in mock-disgust everytime he gets fooled on an obvious called strike. Randy Winn, carefully placing his batting gloves in his helmet on top of the plate everytime he got rung up. Aaron Rowand, with a powerless bat, standing in for the pitch looking like a constipated pelican. Bengie Molina turning triples into doubles and doubles into singles. Eugenio Velez looking more like a Somalian refugee, than a ballplayer and showing all the plate discipline of same. No sense in going on. Everybody gets the point. Nothing will change. Going into Spring Training, the gladhanders on crack and pot see rainbows in Sandoval. I see a maybe. Maybe he will be good like he was in the late summer. He is just as likely to turn into another overblown fat ass like Benitez, Walker, or Livan. When this is your future “star”…you have no future.
And this talk of Randy Johnson, over the hill 40 something anti-Giant. This is like Horace Stoneham signing Warren Spahn at the age of 44 for a few months in 1965 to try and put a few asses in the cheap seats. Spahn gave up 91 hits and walks while striking out 34 in 70 innings. He was released. Three Wins. Four Losses. The Giants finished 2 games out of first. Nice signing. Lurie tried similar in 1986 with the 42 year old Steve Carlton. 52 hits and walks in 30 innings, whiffing 16. He was released. Who the fuck gives a shit about Randy Johnson other than for novelty of watching a former Expo, Mariner, Astro, D-back, Yankee, D-back get dfa’d by the Giants at the end of his career? And Brian Sabean is still employed?
Again the point is not whether Randy Johnson, Edgar Rentaria, nor Josh Phelps, nor Bobby Howry, nor Jeremy Affeldt are better than Omar Vizquel, John Bowker, Kevin Correa, Tyler Walker, or Alex Hinshaw. The point is who the fuck gives a shit about a bunch of overpaid uninteresting deck chairs? The Giants are still a disgrace offensively. They still are stuck with the ridiculous Dave Roberts Aaron Rowand and at least 4 other outfielders who are ordinary even on their best days. They have no power. They have no prospect of power. The Giants don’t evem know what power looks like anymore, other than the idiotic solar panel monument to political correctness in the outfield at Pier 39 South. And Brian Sabean is still employed?
During this 4 year period they have wasted years and millions on Mando Benitez, Steve Finley, Pedro Feliz, Marquis Grissom, Mike Matheny, Edgardo Alfonso, Ray Durham, Omar Vizquel, Matt Morris, Brett Tomko, Latroy Hawkins, Matt Herges, Jason Christianson, Jeff Fassero, Jamey Wright, Ryan Klesko, not to mention their piece d’resistance, the centerpiece, the face-of-the-franchise, and preeminent nancy-boy in spandex; Barry Zito. And Brian Sabean is still employed?
Joe Nathan is closing in Minnesota. Jeremy Accardo is closing in Toronto. A. J. Pershitski goes to the playoffs every year, and Jeff Kent is going to the Hall of Fame while enjoying 2 playoff appearances during this fabulous 4 year run the Giants have put together since they made the brilliant decision not to replace him. “Why replace a power guy with a power guy who helps us win 100 games and division titles, when we can replace him with 2 pieces of shit and a kotex to be named later and compete for high draft choices instead?” And Brian Sabean is still employed?
Thats what the Giants are. You can be pissed off at what I say, and you can disparage me all you want, but you cannot dispute the salient points of disgust with this franchise. This is the worst 4 year era in San Francisco Giants history. There is no power in the lineup, and asides from Bonds there has not been any since 2003. The cleanup hitter hit 16 homeruns last year. CLEANUP HITTER. 16 HOMERUNS. And no replacement. And Brian Sabean is still employed. There have been no homegrown power hitters since Will Clark and Matt Williams. Tim Lincecum had a break out season and the Giants still finished 18 games under .500. In the pathetic NL West. Forget the standings. Just watching these clowns at the plate game after game, without a clue, year after year, putting forth some of the most pathetic swings and plate appearances in Major League Baseball history, is truly astounding. This is a team that plays with no confidence. No direction. No future. And Brian Sabean is still employed?
This thing is too damm far gone to correct with the current leadership, management, and operating philosophy. Nukem better figure it out that MLB and Professional Sports isn’t Microsoft where you can bully your competition into submission. The whole fucking house needs cleaning.
*Yawn* so much to deconstruct…
“At least John’s suggestion are a break from the norm.”
Uh, not really buddy. People have suggested Dunn over on other sites, but that always gets shot down because he is to defense what John Bowker is to plate discipline. Besides that, only a dumbass would take on Roberts right now, and Big Tex wouldn’t want to come here unless he was paid upward of $25 mil/year, partially because he wants to be closer to home on the East coast but mainly because he wants to win right now.
“Blind loyalty to a professional franchise in the Scott Boras era of free-agency and rental players, is to simply align oneself to the vagaries of an ever unstable roster as determined by faceless, unaccountable front office wankers. This is tolerated by most “fans” if the team wins. They are willing to trade-off player allegiances to favorite in exchange for a winning team. I am of course not referring to those whose primary concern is an ample supply of quiche, merlot , garlic fries and a reliable wi-fi connection.”
I actually really liked this paragraph.
“An offense personified by Rich Aurilia stomping out of the box down the third base line in mock-disgust everytime he gets fooled on an obvious called strike. Randy Winn, carefully placing his batting gloves in his helmet on top of the plate everytime he got rung up. Aaron Rowand, with a powerless bat, standing in for the pitch looking like a constipated pelican. Bengie Molina turning triples into doubles and doubles into singles. Eugenio Velez looking more like a Somalian refugee, than a ballplayer and showing all the plate discipline of same.”
Well let’s see… Aurilia’s gone, Randy Winn gets on base at a decent clip and hits for moderate power and plays some of the best RF defense in all of the majors, and Aaron Rowand, despite all his struggles, was still an above-league-average bat (yeah, that surprised me too). We all seem to agree that Bengie is a slowass who shouldn’t bat cleanup and Eugenio needs to get DFA’ed immediately.
“When [big Sandoval] is your future “star”…you have no future.”
Except he’s NOT the “future star” we’re all pining for. Have you looked at the farm system the last couple of years? Aside from Madison Bumgarner and Tim Alderson, two consensus top 50 pitching prospects who have ETA’s of 2010, the Giants have at least two stars in the making in the minors: Buster Posey and Angel Villalona. It’s going to be a couple of years for all four of these guys to get established, but the potential star prospects are there, not to mention guys who “only” project to be above average, such as Nick Noonan (2B), Conor Gillaspie (3B/2B) and Henry Sosa (pitcher).
“And this talk of Randy Johnson, over the hill 40 something anti-Giant. This is like Horace Stoneham signing Warren Spahn at the age of 44 for a few months in 1965 to try and put a few asses in the cheap seats.”
Um, wrong again. Spahn and Johnson are completely different pitchers. Strikeout pitchers age better than “contact” pitchers (less reliance on the defense, stuff is harder to make good contact with), and Spahn was never a strikeout pitcher, averaging only 4.43/9 in his career and a career high of only 5.68. In the three years preceding his stint with the Giants, Spahn struck out 3.94, 3.54, and 4.04 batters per 9 innings. He also walked too many guys for being a contact pitcher, posting 2.46 BB/9 in his career, though he did cure that going into his Giants stint (1.84, 1.70, 2.69 1962-64).
“Lurie tried similar in 1986 with the 42 year old Steve Carlton. 52 hits and walks in 30 innings, whiffing 16.”
Carlton was a good K guy in his prime, though pretty inconsistent, but going into 1986 his K rate was decreasing (8.73 to 6.41 to a pitiful 4.70) and his walk rate was increasing (2.67 to 3.10 to 5.18). So of course that was going to hell.
So what makes Johnson different from these two guys? It’s pretty damn simple: HE’S STILL A HIGH K GUY! From 2006-2008 he’s put up K/9 rates of 7.55, 11.44, and 8.46, much lower than career rate of 10.67/9 but still well above league average. On top of that, he’s not walking many batters either (2.63, 2.06, 2.15). You put that together with his resurgence since he came back to the NL (obviously, since the NL is far behind the AL) and moving to a park that suppresses home runs (unlike the extreme hitters’ park he pitched in the past 2 years), and voila, you have a guy who isn’t just filler. Even a conservative projection (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/free-agent-bargain-randy-johnson) has him saving 25 runs above average.
“The Giants are still a disgrace offensively. They still are stuck with the ridiculous Dave Roberts Aaron Rowand and at least 4 other outfielders who are ordinary even on their best days.”
I’m guessing that your “ordinary” you mean “average”. And no, again you’re wrong. Aaron Rowand, Fred Lewis, and Randy Winn are all above-average (though slightly) with the bat, despite their lack of home run production. Nate Schierholtz is probably above-average too, except no one really knows for sure since he hasn’t gotten a chance to play everyday yet.
“They have no power.”
You’re mostly right here. Except for Sandoval, Schierholtz, and maybe Phelps and Ishikawa, no one has above average power. Good thing there are other ways to help your team, like getting on base, playing stud defense, and not being Manny Burriss (sorry guys, but when PECOTA is released, you’ll understand).
“They have no prospect of power.”
See: above; Villalona, Angel; Noonan, Nicholas; Rodriguez, Rafael
“During this 4 year period they have wasted years and millions on Mando Benitez, Steve Finley, Pedro Feliz, Marquis Grissom, Mike Matheny, Edgardo Alfonso, Ray Durham, Omar Vizquel, Matt Morris, Brett Tomko, Latroy Hawkins, Matt Herges, Jason Christianson, Jeff Fassero, Jamey Wright, Ryan Klesko, not to mention their piece d’resistance, the centerpiece, the face-of-the-franchise, and preeminent nancy-boy in spandex; Barry Zito.”
Yep, that’s a nasty list.
“Joe Nathan is closing in Minnesota. Jeremy Accardo is closing in Toronto. A. J. Pershitski goes to the playoffs every year, and Jeff Kent is going to the Hall of Fame while enjoying 2 playoff appearances during this fabulous 4 year run the Giants have put together since they made the brilliant decision not to replace him.”
That Nathan blossomed into a closer when he got the chance in Minnesota… well, that is Sabean’s fault. Accardo, though, had a good season and a half (good, not great), was only the closer because B.J. Ryan got injured, is tremendously helped out by one of the consistently top 5 defenses in the game, and pretty much sucked dick this year before his arm injuries took him out for the rest of the year. Pershitski’s been to the playoffs twice in the past 4 years and did so on the backs of his teammates. And Jeff Kent, really? You like good bat, poor D second basemen who give back a significant portion of their offensive production back while fielding? If that’s your cup of tea, I guess Kent will make you happy.
“Just watching these clowns at the plate game after game, without a clue, year after year, putting forth some of the most pathetic swings and plate appearances in Major League Baseball history, is truly astounding.”
Hyperbole alert raised to red.
“This is a team that plays with no confidence…”
Really? What I’ve seen is a team with players who’ve thought they’re better than who they really are (with Rowand being offender #1).
“…No direction…”
You know, something happened in 2006. The Giants landed Angel Villalona, the most sought-after amateur talent in Latin America, and did so by putting up the highest bid. Flash forward to today, where the Giants have consistently spent money on bonuses for top prospects and continue to sign Latin American amateurs. The farm system still doesn’t have much depth, sure, but the first 1-8 match up well to any other team’s 1-8’s, especially the first four guys (Bumgarner, Posey, Villalona, Alderson). When I said that the Renteria signing could only be indefensible if they could’ve used that money toward their scouting and signing, John’s writing friend, Keith Law, said the Giants are already top 5 spenders and would be hard pressed to spend much more money on amateur talent than they already do. Add that onto Sabean poaching John Barr from the Dodgers (the guy who signed, among others, Russell Martin, Jonathan Broxton and Scott Proctor), plus the organization hiring another regional scouting supervisor (Northwest US), a Latin America cross-checker, and two scouts in baseball-rich Florda, plus the Giants not losing any of their picks due to signing free agents this year or last year (except for that dumb Rowand thing) and wow, it does look like the Giants have made an effort to develop players internally through the draft, a la the Rays, the Dodgers pre-Colletti, etc.
But sure, they have no fucking direction at all.
“…No future…”
I’d like you to meet some guys named Tim, Matt, and Jonathan. Fred and Nate will be here shortly, as will Pablo.
Really, I suggest you to follow the farm system more carefully. It really does make things less depressing. Or, since you’ve been so patient with the team, just wait until 2010.
Wow, that was pretty fun. Let’s do this again sometime.
whoops, cut off…
Um, wrong again. Spahn and Johnson are completely different pitchers. Strikeout pitchers age better than “contact” pitchers (less reliance on the defense, stuff is harder to make good contact with), and Spahn was never a strikeout pitcher, averaging only 4.43/9 in his career and a career high of only 5.68. In the three years preceding his stint with the Giants, Spahn struck out 3.94, 3.54, and 4.04 batters per 9 innings. He also walked too many guys for being a contact pitcher, posting 2.46 BB/9 in his career, though he did cure that going into his Giants stint (1.84, 1.70, 2.69 1962-64).
“Lurie tried similar in 1986 with the 42 year old Steve Carlton. 52 hits and walks in 30 innings, whiffing 16.”
Carlton was a good K guy in his prime, though pretty inconsistent, but going into 1986 his K rate was decreasing (8.73 to 6.41 to a pitiful 4.70) and his walk rate was increasing (2.67 to 3.10 to 5.18). So of course that was going to hell.
So what makes Johnson different from these two guys? It’s pretty damn simple: HE’S STILL A HIGH K GUY! From 2006-2008 he’s put up K/9 rates of 7.55, 11.44, and 8.46, much lower than career rate of 10.67/9 but still well above league average. On top of that, he’s not walking many batters either (2.63, 2.06, 2.15). You put that together with his resurgence since he came back to the NL (obviously, since the NL is far behind the AL) and moving to a park that suppresses home runs (unlike the extreme hitters’ park he pitched in the past 2 years), and voila, you have a guy who isn’t just filler. Even a conservative projection (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/free-agent-bargain-randy-johnson) has him saving 25 runs above average.
“The Giants are still a disgrace offensively. They still are stuck with the ridiculous Dave Roberts Aaron Rowand and at least 4 other outfielders who are ordinary even on their best days.”
I’m guessing that your “ordinary” you mean “average”. And no, again you’re wrong. Aaron Rowand, Fred Lewis, and Randy Winn are all above-average (though slightly) with the bat, despite their lack of home run production. Nate Schierholtz is probably above-average too, except no one really knows for sure since he hasn’t gotten a chance to play everyday yet.
Oh damn, sorry about that double posting John
It’s nice to see a healthy debate going here again – it’s been a long time.
I do have a beef, and it’s not just John’s negativity, which seems unshakeable. I’ve said before that I don’t understand how people who hate the players, management, and ownership so much still bother to think of themselves as Giants’ fans – why not take you allegiance to a team that operates the way you think they should? Hmmm, let’s see, just who would that be? As terrible and ignorant as you accuse the Giants organization of being, would you rather be applying those analytical talents to the Cubbies? Dodgers? Astros? I can think of any number of black hole franchises that make the Giants look prudent and inteligent by comparison, including the Yankees – the one franchise that ALWAYS goes after the kind of players John and Mia+ think the Giants should. Sometimes that’s worked, but there have been an awful lot of very expensive Yankees teams that have failed. Ditto for the Mets, who try to emulate the Yankees as best they can, with even worse results.
What’s buggin me now, though, is the prevalent opinion here (with a couple of notable exceptions) that if one can’t agree that Sabean is a blithering idiot running the Giants into the ground, and that the team is utterly unwatchable, you’re a mindless, starry-eyed consumer who knows nothing about baseball, and only goes to games for the food. I have to take exception to that, as I, and a whole lot of other folks, fall somewhere in between – and believe me, there’s a big variety of fans in the vast middle ground you leave unaddressed.
Another point that deserves mention, I think, is that an awful lot of the players who’ve been continually dissed here have had no trouble being picked up by other teams after leaving the Giants, often by contenders, and some have had notable success. I have a hard time understanding how, if Pedro Feliz is so despicable, the Phillies were willing to take him on and play him every day. Did they somehow know he’d get the hit that won the World Series for them, so it wouldn’t matter that he was awful the rest of the year? No one received more abuse here than Neifi, but that didn’t keep him from being signed and playing every day elsewhere. Do you ever stopto consider the notion that your judgments are not infallible, that there are other ways of looking at players and teams and the game itself that may have some validity besides your own?
Lastly (although I could go on), I have to ask for some respect for Omar Vizquel. It’s been clear all along that few of the voices here have much regard for defense, that hitting stats are all that matters in evaluating position players, but to endlessly put down Omar because he didn’t hit .300 the last two seasons (not that he got any props for doing so before that) strikes me as wrong-headed in the extreme. It wasn’t so long ago, remember, that shortstops weren’t expected to hit a lick, and Omar actualy managed to turn himself into a pretty decent hitter in the course of a long career that was notable – Hall of Fame worthy – not just for being one of the all-time great infielders, but a stellar human being as well. If the fact that he wasn’t A-Rod or Jeter or Ripken keeps you from appreciating his play, too bad for you, but at least give the man his propers by leaving him out of your “worst of” list, okay?
Hal – Thank you! I agree with your setiments posted above. While I have the utmost respect for John, I agree that sometimes his negativity can be somewhat of a turnoff. But what’s even worse are the constant Sabean-bashers who all seem scream “What!!! We didn’t sign Teixera?!?!? Why the f%$k not??”
John is a bit down on the Giants, but his criticism is not that Player A is not a fit for the team/paid too much/too old/not adequate offensively, etc, but that EVERY player brought in since 2004 seems to be of that vein, where it is great to have one or two of those on the team, but not all 8 starters who are effectively replacement players for their position.
Feliz is a great example. Not a terrible player, good defense, poor, but adequate offense, when surrounded by better players. But when Feliz is your home run leader? Same with Molino… Great catcher for a decent offense. When he is your offensive leader, your team is in deep trouble. Omar, the same. Wynn, the same. Roland, the same. Aurilia, the same. I can’t think of a player on the giants roster who would be the 4th or fifth best hitter on another decent team. It would not take a lot for this team to get better, just two strong hitters, and then we could afford the filler. The other problem with Sabean’s philosophy is while most teams get their filler from the farm system, i.e, cheap, we pay millions for ours.
No, I don’t get it either.
Great job Aaron.
How can anyone dismiss the importance of defense turning two BIP into outs and saving 1.6 Rp/G? It’s the fastest (and cheapest) way to get better fast.
Something to keep in mind about this team’s ‘Great Rotation’:
The starter’s ERA was 5.23 in the 95 games not pitched by Lincecum or Cain.