Sorry for the lack of posts. Very busy times, what with the local fires and all….
What are the Giants supposed to do with Barry Zito? I think the time has come to think about shutting him down for the rest of the season. He’s gonna lose 20 games, and is doing nothing to help the team. In fact, he’s hurting the team in every way, between his inability to throw strikes, or keep his team in the game; his complete destruction of the season has reached epic proportions.
The Giants are 11 games under .500, and Barry Zito (3-12) is fully nine games of that eleven. Even worse, with his 0-8 home record, (the team has lost all 9 of his home starts), he is the entire reason the Giants (14-25 at home) are a sub .500 team at home.
I understand that the Giants are a poor offensive team, and that playing at PacBell limits them even more, but, come on. In 43 innings at home, Zito has given up 42 runs. Seriously, how can the team ignore this? How can Sabean not consider calling Rick Peterson, under whom Zito enjoyed his greatest success? How much longer can they allow him to be the anti-Carlton?
The simple fact is this; the Giants can now lay claim to two major free agent accomplishments, the best free agent signing ever, and the worst.
******
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Heyas Dignan:
“Team Morale” is not pseudo-sports psychology. If you’ve ever worked beside an incompetent co-worker who made 20x as much as you and was 1/20 as productive, made your job imminently more difficult, and helped give your employer a run at Chapter 11 in the process, then you would understand.
Peter Magowan is already gone. Zito Related or not, makes no difference….he is gone, the Giants are an organization in flux, and the Zito fiasco is certainly part of the reason.
Scott S
My remarks are not directed at Zito the man. My remarks are about Zito the ballplayer, between the lines. Not his intrinsic worth as human being They are about his actions and deportment as they relate to him as a Starting Pitcher. Arguably, the most prominent single position in all of team sports.
Marc
I remember the sad saga of Steve Blass all too well. As a society we seemed to accept those things better than we do now. Its as if for everything that goes wrong, there is a man-made solution. That somehow, money or science or meditation or surfing, or pet rocks can cure and/or prevent anything and everything that we find inconvenient, harmful or unpleasant. And when all of that fails, fuck it, we can always find a lawyer to sue somebody for us.
For the record here is Steve Blass’ line from 1972 and 1973.
1972 19W 8L 2.49 ERA. 84 Walks, 117 strikeouts, 11 Complete Games and 249 innings in 32 starts. Blass made his only All-Star Game appearance that year.
The following year at the ripe old age of 31:
3W 9L 9.85 ERA. 84 Walks, 27 strikeouts, 1 complete game and 88 innings in 18 starts.
Blass pitched 5 innings in 1974, his 10th and last season in MLB…all with the Pirates)
Good points, mia, as usual. The sudden losing it happens all the time – I had the weird fortune (?) of seeing Steve Blass pitch in AAA after he had lost his control. It was bizarre – he didn’t get hit, because he couldn’t throw a strike. Rick Ankiel lucked out, and all power to him, and no dispersions cast on those who do lose it, but when it comes to Zito I agree with another post – he can’t pitch. Once his stuff faded away, which it does for every pitcher eventually, what I see when he pitches is a guy that never took the time to learn a damn thing. He has god knows how many innings pitched, apparently is not injured, years in the bigs, still does indeed have the great curve sometimes, and a serviceable one usually. There is no way he shouldn’t be at least functional, and he’s not.
I know these are not perfect examples, but look at Trevor Hoffman or Jamie Moyer – they can’t even break a pane of glass, but more than deserve their roster spots. Zito is 10+ years younger, and quite honestly, probably fares worse than the best high A prospect would.
So I take back my “send him to Fresno” argument – the post above mentioning what happens if he bombs there is the killer. The total ludicrousness that Arizona is STILL paying Russ Ortiz should be a permanent word of caution.
mia,
Awsome read dude… Now, tell us how you really feel.
I agree with most…but, getting too personal about Zito. No need to crucify him further.
Dignan,
As for the pitching he was relating to…anytime,anywhere…I think he was talking about our “young guns” Cain,Sanchez, and Lincecum….and you never know if there is another gem in minors…whether it be Fresno or AA.
Give me 15,000 die-hards who used to frequent the “stick” …and put them in AT&T…and maybe that place would come alive.
Jim,Grega,Dignan,E,
All good points. Trying to find value in Zito is difficult. You can only hope he can give the Gigantes qulaity starts( 6 inn, 4.50 era)…and the days of hoping for a return to past glory are gone. Lower expectations is where we all should be. Enough of the Zito bashing…I’ve been too much the fan at times to see straight. It’s all about building for the future…even though the NL worst can be had.
I’ve been saying for over a month that you cannot keep Vizquel in the line-up(below .150). Burriss needs to play. He will only improve. Try Hinshaw as set-up until he proves otherwise. Walker has blown too many opportunities. Alfonso forgetting to throw to 3rd last night was little league play…cost 2 runs. His reward to us for getting called up. Whatever the mind set about playing at home needs to change. Rowan is hitting 115 points less at home. It’s like they cannot wait to leave on a road trip. For all the talk about speed, we lead the NL in hitting into DP’s. This line-up is in need of a major tweak…or over-haul. Durham sure knows how to crank it up in a contract year.
I try not to forget that we would be in last and 16 out in the NL Central. Sobering.
I watch most teams on MLB…and never do you see so much time wasted on seeing babies and kids in the stands like you do with the Gigantes. It’s way past old. You get the feeling the organization and it’s marketing is all about “the event” coming to the yard…and not enough about winning.
Lets see if I can summarize the more salient points. Everybody agrees that Zito is as of right now, at the very least, brutally inconsistent, and at worst, getting run out every 5th day only because of his contract. Not because he is a bonafide mlb starter, but because he is being paid more than the rest of pitching staff combined.
Here’s the breakout for this year:
Zito 14,500,000. $453,000 per start based on 32 starts
The rest of the pitching staff
Noah Lowry $2,500,000
Brad Hennesay $1,600,000
Kevin Corriea $1,075,000
Matt Cain $950,000
Vinnie Chulk $837,500
Tyler Walker $750,000
Tim Lincecum $405,000
Jack Taschner $400,000
Jon Sanchez $395,000
Brian Wilson $392,500
Merkin Valdez $390,000
Keiichi Yabu $390,000
In other terms. Barry Zito makes more per start, than Tim Lincecum will make all year. Barry Zito made more money by the middle of April than Matt Cain will make all year. Barry Zito made more money by the end of April than anybody on the pitching staff will make all year. With the exception of Noah Lowry….who he surpassed sometime in early May.
Now, if this season were an anomaly. Or if he were recouping from an injury. Or if he was just pitching in bad luck. Or if he were just off by “a little bit”. Or if he had been dynamite for even one or two games. If any of those things, than one could have an arguement for Zito’s continued uninterrupted occupancy of a preferred locker in the clubhouse.
Nevermind that Zito’s continued presence in the starting rotation is rapidly replacing Bill Veeck’s use of midget Eddie Gaedel as a pinch hitter as best farce in the history of Major League Baseball. MSM and the Giants are trying to spin this into a “sympathy story”, the likes of which I’ve not seen since Dave Dravecky was trying to recover from cancer surgery. Giants management’s efforts to whitewash Zito are as cynical as their blackballing of Barry Bonds. But I expect nothing less from Baseball owners. Spoiled, trust fund babies to whom image is everything, and substance is nothing. Perception is reality. Truth is something to be manipulated. Greed is good. At least the Yankees’ Hank Steinbrenner is brutally blunt and vocal in his cynicism. He understands that real fans want winners, not brie cheese and wine at a theme park with a burning desire to be in touch with their inner Barry Zito Zen child.
The fact of the matter is, if I’m a player, I look at this guy and say to myself, that with the exception of a few games, this guy’s a punk. He has been terrible since he got here. He either cannot, or will not make the changes necessary for him to be successful, and he kills our team every 5th day. And he looks scared shitless and infantile while doing it. What he did in 2002 to 2006 is about as relevant as a corsage from last years high school prom. All I know right now, is that we have some really good young pitchers that are exciting to play behind and have enough mound presence that they can keep us in any game against anybody, anytime, anywhere. That is what makes the seven month grind of a mediocre baseball season tolerable. As a player, that is what keeps me from wanting to jump the Giants ship as soon as my contract is up. As a quality player, the last thing I want to look forward to is spending a significant portion of my own finite major league career watching Barry Zito rape my club for 25 percent of the payroll, while taking us out of ballgames by the 3rd or 4th inning forever.
Too many try to view Zito’s salary as an accounting problem. Or a conflict in management philosophies. I’m telling you its a player problem. There is not one single player in that clubhouse right now, that would see the absence of one Barry Zito from the team as a negative. Not one. They might feel bad for him, because of the “but for the grace of God, go I” rule. Not because they were losing a valuable contributing member of their team. It is the nature of the game once one enters the realm of meritocracy in organized baseball. Players know this. Even Zito. This is the structure of the game that antecedes recreational youth ball. You know. The kind where everybody gets picked, everybody plays, and June Cleaver is team mom. After that it is a culling process. It is constant, it is relentless, and it is never ending. Bodies age, get sick, get injured. Better talent replaces the good talent that replaced the ordinary talent that replaced the entry level talent.
Its just the way the world works. The only reason Zito is around is because of the front office, not because of the actual team. Its about them saving face in yet another preposterous overreach of their own arrogance when it comes to baseball decisions. It is about their continuing forfeiture of credibility with ballplayers, agents, and the MLPA. And people wonder why free agents don’t want to come here anymore? Do you really have to ask?
The Zito money is gone, whether he is here or not. Zito’s continued presence is simply a reminder of that waste. Forget what the spin is. Forget about the past or Bill James idiotic comments that “you have to play him”. Just the opposite is true. That is why Bill James writes books about statistics, and essentially views baseball in a rearview mirror. Its a nice way to analyze the past. But it tells you not enough about the future and nothing of the present. What anybody who knows anything about this game sees every 5th day is a guy who is no longer capable of pitching at anything above semi-pro level on a constant basis. He is Rick Ankiel the pitcher, with less stuff, and less control. A good high school pitcher has better command of his stuff then Zito. Regardless of ERA, Whip, K/BB ratio ad nauseum, Zito simply LOOKS pathetic and THROWS even more pathetically. If not for the money, he could not get past the first cut of a Scouting Bureau open try-out.
Failure in pitching is like failure in baseball. Its rarely if ever just one thing. For Dravecky, it was simple to pinpoint. For Omar? For Zito? For Koufax? Age? Injury? Combination? Mental Fatigue? I can share a little insight. Guy I know. He set all kinds of records in college. Was a starting outfielder for a long time in MLB. Crushed the ball for years. Got into a World Series and right in the middle of a game one day, it hit him. He couldn’t believe or accept the enormity of his personal achievement. It became unreal. He started having nightmares about not being able to hit inside fastballs. And he was never the same. And it happened when he was 29. And he is not unique. Its not real commonplace, but it happens quite a bit. Especially for guys who had their paths carved for them in advance by doting parents, coaches and others friendly to their cause.
All we know is that permanent failure touches even the greatest at some point. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Christy Mathewson, Cy Young. All reached the inevitable point of failure which spelled the end of their success. It happens to everybody. No exceptions. The only difference is when. And that is why he needs to go the way of Matt Morris, Brett Tomko, Eduardo Alfonzo, Steve Finley, and other over the hill, overpaid has-beens, and never-was’. The sooner, the better.
You certainly make a well written and compelling arguement that he’s done. An argument I’m not buying but, nonetheless, insightful and a good read. We can all go in circles on this forever (again), but still I have to ask what the grand option is to replace him. Who are these “really good young pitchers that are exciting to play behind and have enough mound presence that they can keep us in any game against anybody, anytime, anywhere” we have ready to get the call up right now in our system? And why are we seeing Pat Misch instead of them? I’m not going to claim to be an expert on all our starting pitching prospects but it seems to me right now the best of them are either not yet ready or already on the 25-man. And again, is bringing one of them up really going to turn this 11 games under .500 team (in baseball’s worst division) around in the near or long-term?
As to the claim that somehow we are destroying the will of our players to compete by starting Zito, that sort of pseudo-sports psychology just ain’t flying with me and I defy anyone to provide empirical evidence as to its validity. Can we draw a straight line between that sterling Vizquel OPS and Zito’s ERA – a silly example but its a silly little theory IMO.
p.s. If there any midgets available at short I say lets do this thing.
what does it matter who we put in to replace zito?
the rest of the season could be used to audition the arms we have in the minors
anything is better than watching zito every 5th day….anything
and here is a fact, because of zito’s bloated salary, we will lose either sanchez, cain or lincecum when they are fa elligable…maybe 2 of the 3
that is a given
I’m less concerned with Zito every 5 days than Vizqel’s .304 OPS every day. Sit him, trade him, or cut him, but get Burriss in there.
This year is all about 2009 and beyond.
I don’t understand the inner workings either but it makes sense. The Giants can’t send him to Fresno. If he returns to Cy Young form it’s still AAA and he’s got to prove it in the Big Leagues. If he continues to struggle or only improves marginally well in Fresno then there’s absolutely no hope of trading him.
Realistically his dominating days are long gone. What the Giants or any other club are hoping to get from him is some consistency. 30 starts, 180 innings, 4.50 ERA, W-L irrelevant. That’s where we are. That’s what he’s working towards. Its not what was advertised when he was signed but hopefully that’s useful here in San Francisco (not really on this crappy of a club but in two years?) or somewhere else. To get to that consistency he’s got to pitch.
At the outfielders are getting plenty of practice throwing to cut off men.
From the reader questions section of Bill James’ web site:
———————————————————————————–
Hey Bill – if you were the GM of the Giants what would you do with Barry Zito?
Asked by: Larry
Answered: July 1, 2008
Answer: Let him pitch. There’s nothing else you can do.
————————————————————————————
I confess that I don’t really understand the logic here. But Bill James knows 1000 times more about baseball than I do, so perhaps the “Let Zito work his way through his troubles” crowd has a point…
I suppose it comes down to whether or not you believe Zito is done as a MLB pitcher and I’m just not ready to concede that, not when we have 18-20M a year for the next five years riding on it. We are going to find out by this time next year in any case.
Scott S. in no way am I saying I think he is worth even close to that contract but even if he can be a 4 or 5 starter, veteran presence on the club that has occasional quality starts (see: Cleveland) and the potential for a return to greatness (the curve at least is still vicious some nights by god); I will take that over just eating it as a 100% loss for the sake of giving Pat Misch 100 innings. I’m thinking Matt Morriss here only with a happy ending. Wait forget I said that. And Jim, no worries, we will be hearing plenty about his contract and its ridiculousness for the forseeable future whether he is playing for our team or otherwise.
I don’t need to depress us all by going down the list of potential free agents we wont be signing in lieu of carrying that contract or our own young talent we may not be able to keep when they come up for big money. One way or another the organization needs to continue to at least attempt to salvage this in some small way and I think the realistic way to do that is let him throw every 5th day in this going-nowhere season and pray for no more than a run an inning. Trades? I can’t fathom the desire exists out there on either end of the deal. Moreover, the idea is to buy low sell high right. Not buy excruciatingly stupidly high and give away so Sabean/the organization can try to hide from their failures.
As for optimism at our odds in the NL Worst – not buying it, and even If we dare to dream that brand of madness I doubt whatever alternative we dredge out of AAA would be a dramatic improvement over this sadface Zito year.
if it’s about the money (and I think to some degree it is), the Giants need to treat Zito like any other business would treat an investment – as a sunk cost. The money’s gone, it’s spent. I don’t really know what the best course of action is, but I’m in favor of the Fresno idea, then, if it doesn’t make any difference, hold a yard sale. Unless there’s some real, non-monetary reason to believe that he’s going to be an average innings-eater, he needs to be treated like any other pitcher. At present, I really doubt the Giants have a shot at first, and I really doubt Pat Misch has shown he’s an option. Zito should be, for now, wherever he has the best shot of regaining whatever he might be able to regain. (Why don’t teams call in a special coach – Rick Peterson, Mike Marshall! – Rag’s infallibility?). But that shouldn’t last past the middle of next year and/or until there’s a phenom to replace him. Forget the contract – it’s money down the drain.
I agree that Zito needs a change of scene, but not the bullpen or
Fresno.
The best thing for the team, the management, the fans and Zito would
be to trade him. IMO Jim is corrrect, he will never have value to the
Giants because of his price tag. It is delusional to think he will ever come close to earning his salary. Going 8-12 as the fifth starter on a
good team would be the best tonic for all concerned. Keeping him around
for the rest of the year and having to endure the humiliation and negativity
is not going to do anybody any good. There is no way he’s going to improve enough to continue betting the come.
Grega,
Agree with you to some extent. Zito is a #5 starter on most clubs. But the main problem, Zito does not eat up innings, and is over the 100+ pitch count by the 5th inning in over 90% of his starts. He kills the pen. His inability to perform at home is strictly related to his contract. He feels the pressure, and it’s definitely in his head…and it shows. His consistent loss of concentration directly relates to his poor command. Hey…for what Zito does for the troops has me in his camp for life…TOTAL CLASS ACT. And none of us should forget that. In the real world outside of sports…Zito is the person you all want as your friend. This is about finding ways to get him back on track and giving the Gigantes the best chance to win. Zito needs a change of scenery…to reflect and regain himself. Maybe just to the pen or skip a turn. I think the All-Star break might be just what the doctor ordered.
About the Gigantes chances. If Zito does turn it around…look out. The carry over effect to the club will be enormous. Bats will come alive. I agree with your assessment of the Warriors…except the Gigantes have pitching and defense…and that’s what wins in the playoffs. Nobody will want to face the Gigantes staff in a five game series. This staff with momentum could be seriusly dangerous. Big maybe’s…but not completely unrealistic. I relaize hope is eternal…but anything is possible in the NL worst. If Vizquel could only hit .220 we’d have a few more wins.
Say what you will…but stranger things have happened. A great pitching staff is like a hot goalie going into the playoffs. Let’s not forget Fresno State winning the College World Series at a couple thousand to one odds. We’d all like to have a twenty on that. I remember another team called the Giants winning as a wild card on the road…all the way to Super Bowl Champs…and everyone said that couldn’t be done. It’s time to get behind the Gigantes this year, and count our blessings that we’re not in the NL Central..buried in last.
So enough of the total negativism…this team has a legit shot at winning…and getting better is the first step. Like I keep saying…anything can happen.
I’m ready to email Zito and give him a toal pump up.
I think Grega is right, and his viewpoint is more reasonable than my own cranky takes on this issue. But if Zito’s true worth is in the $2 mill/year range, doesn’t it make sense to trade him to a team that will pick up $2 mill/year of his salary, rather than to keep him on the Giants and go through 5.5 more years of complaints and negativity swirling around him? On another team Zito can go 10-12 with a 4.60 ERA, and management will receive approving press about how they acquired a solid back-of-the-rotation starter at a reasonable cost. But if Zito does the same thing for the Giants — and does anyone think he will do much better than this? — all we will hear is what a dumb signing this was, that Sabean should be fired, how Zito is blocking this or that young pitcher in AAA, etc. The organization doesn’t really need this.
I think that at this point Zito is more valuable to another team than he is to the Giants, because on another team that is paying 10% of his salary, all the negativity and finger-pointing goes away. So if the Giants can unload Zito at 10 cents on the dollar, I vote that they do it.
Dignan,
I get your point…but the fact is Zito has been sub-par for almost 2+ years. I know you have access to the stats…break them down…pretty pathetic. “Serviceable”…is not acceptable. Zito’s ERA in Oakland was also helped by the large amount of foul territory. A couple of his wins last year were against teams playing call ups…and well out of contention. His inability to perform in front of the home fans speaks for itself. I think most of us would love to see a different Zito…but, he has lost total command of his pitches. Even at 88 mph, his pitches are up in the zone. Everyone is aware that Zito is only in the rotation, let alone take up a roster spot because of this contract. This is the bad part of the business side of baseball. If not for his contract, Zito most likely would have been given his outright release. So I guess your logic is…since we overpaid…we might as well stick with it. If you buy a lemon for a car…might as well keep driving it. Kind of like a bad marriage…just hang in there and work it out. I don’t buy into that. Just my opinion.
Another problem with Zito…that no one seems to bring up…is he averages less than five innings a start…and totally kills your pen. If you gave Misch(or anybody) the same opportunity as Zito…you might win a few more games. Isn’t that what we all want? There might be another gem in Fresno just waiting for a shot. You never know. Most eveyone hates favoritism…and this reaks of it.
You may think the Gigantes are out of contention…and playing for the future, but anything is possible in the NL worst. They could be less than 3 out at the break…and with Lincecum,Sanchez,Cain heating up…and Hinshaw,Walker and Wilson in the pen. If Correia can hold his own would just add to the mix. This is a formidable staff to deal with.
I’m not saying this is a division winner, but I watch the other teams in our division on MLB and it can be done. But, we cannot continue to run the same line-up out if we expect to gain any ground. I’ve been saying all year that we need to play the kids…and Aurilia needs to be at third. Castillo is a spot starter at best.
If Zito gets shelled on Saturday…then it’s time to take him out of the rotation. Maybe just pitch him on road games.
I’m sick of looking at Zito like everybody else but truthfully I don’t think just dumping him is a realistic course of action.
First of I think it’s silly to think that if didn’t have his current contract he wouldn’t be in the majors. That’s a completely false statement. Zito is a left handed starter with a history of success. I personally don’t think he’s that great of a pitcher, but he would be pitching in the majors without doubt. A huge chunk of the issue is about expectation. With that contract there is no way to deliver. However no one would complain if he was the forth starter and paid 2 mil per year.
And that is the truth of it. He’s the forth or fifth starter on the Giants. This team is going no where. He should be the fifth starter and if he can eat innings and figure out how to keep games close he will have some value on this club in future years. Christ Reuter did that for like 8 years. If at some point in the next several seasons we’ve got 5 other hot shot starters and there isn’t any room for him then its worth looking at eating salary to unload him. We don’t have that now.
Also, yes anything is possible is the NL worst, but just making the playoffs has been the goal for the Golden State Warriors. Not for the Giants. The NL west will offer up nothing more then a tune up for the other divisions. If the Giants do make the playoffs they won’t win a game anyway.
Let’s not lose sight of the real prize.
IMO DFA’ing Zito to send a message that “players will be judged on their performance” would achieve exactly dick. As to the notion that he is irrecovable as a pitcher, I very much believe his decent into total crap the first half this year has been tied to the fact that his fastball was topping out at an unacceptable 83 mph. He is a completely different pitcher at 88, which at least he has shown he can hit the past two starts. Zito was at least serviceable last year and had stretches of greatness near the end of the season – Its way to early to nail the coffin shut on a 30 year old pitcher especially a crafty lefty.
This isnt a suit we bought its a HOME, a mortgage! Barry is going to make 18.5 to 20M annually over the next five seasons, thats 25% of our 2008 payroll every year – we can’t just throw that away after 10 dismal starts or even 20.
Upon further review my call to DFA Zito was probably foolish. Even granted that Zito has been pathetic, given the market for pitching there is probably some team that would sign Zito to a 3-year, $10 million contract if he was currently a free agent. That suggests that we could probably off-load Zito to some other team, and get them to pick up $10 million of his remaining contract while we pay the remaining $90+ million. Eating $90 million of the remaining contract is awful — but it beats DFA’ing Zito and eating all $100 million…
But I do think we need to ship Zito out of town, at whatever cost. He is hurting the team on the field; keeping him in the lineup sends a bad message about accountability; and it is a negative and unnecessary distraction that every fifth day brings renewed debates about “How could we have signed this guy, and what do we do with him now?!”
They aren’t going to shut him down this early. I’m not sure what the reasoning is behind that argument if there is any at all beyond just being bitter. Listen: we are not going to make the playoffs. Thats with or without Barry Zito and you know this. Yea, I know, we are only 5.5 out with our terribad record but no no no its not going to happen and if you have been paying attention this season you should be acutely aware of this. We literally have nothing to lose letting the biggest investment on our club try to work it out during this lost season, especially given the recent glimmer of hope we’ve seen. Going from throwing 83 to 88 makes a night and day difference; does that really even need to be said?
People want to piss on Sabean and Zito forever like its some sort of cathartic release of hatred that somehow validates by inverse their own supremely infallible judgement of all baseball, it doesn’t. As a fan of the club I’m not sure how you can think it would be nice to see Zito starting in Fresno or released from the team. That monstrous contract we’ve signed him too, thats a part of our future – we are married to this mess. Personally I’d like to see my team compete in the next decade and just giving up completely on ~$100 million for no logical reason (i.e. Pat Misch? seriously?) is a downright stupid way to go about it.
How many pitchers in ML history can you name that used to be good, then fell down to where their strikeout rates were well below the league average and who walked more batters than they struck out, and who then got their act together and went on to be successful again? OK, Dennis Martinez. Now name another.
There is practically no precedent for a successful pitcher to fall apart like Zito has, and then come back. Mike Hampton didn’t. Russ Ortiz didn’t. Denny Neagle and Carl Pavano didn’t. By keeping Zito in the rotation the Giants send a message to the other players that they are assigning playing time based on salary not performance, and that they are willing to accept losing because that’s just the way things are right now. This seems unlikely to bolster team morale. DFA’ing Zito sends a message that players will be judged on their performance, and that the Giants refuse to let the mistakes of the past ruin their present and future.
If you buy an expensive suit and then find it is laced with anthrax, only a foolish person would say “I paid so much for this suit that I can’t afford not to wear it.” Keeping Zito in the rotation is damaging to the Giants’ health.
jim,
we currently have what appears to be the best 1-3 in the league with timmy, sanchez and caine….that means filling in two holes
correia is servicable, and maybe noah comes back…maybe he doesnt, but the number 5 guy is just there to eat innings
shoot, zito cant even do that
so you do palmer for a month….and go from there
you dont put a guy on the mound just cuz you are paying him beaucoup bux
i say make zito a part of the grounds crew in fresno…at least those guys will teach him to dance
fuck that….i want to see him lose 25 games
i want sabean to explain how he wasted 126 million on a dead arm, yet laughed at all of us for suggesting going after vlad for less than a third of that
i want zito to start next season in fresno…..richest minor leaguer in history
and i want sabean to be hocking peanuts in the stands for the next 50 years until he pays off the entirety of the contract
Totally agree. And maybe Zito NEEDS to be embarassed. If that contract is guaranteed and he’s getting paid no matter what, screw his feelings. Send him to Fresno…
I do not believe they will shut him down now, however come August and he is at 16 or 17 loses I definitely can. I agree though though they should send him to the minors. Maybe being the 126 dollar man in the minors will light a fire under his ass. And if this continues into next year, if he has any integrity at all he will retire.
Good to see you haven’t forgotten us John. Hopefully, the fires have subsided and didn’t threaten you personally. Agree with Jim, except the Gigantes may want to try to cut a deal with an AL club willing to take Zito on with the Gigantes picking up a portion of the salary. If this cannot be accomplished, then I would send him down until the Sept call ups. A couple months in the minors may light a fire under his soft and comfortable ass. But, he cannot be in the rotation any longer. He is a head case, and I am shocked at his lack of mental toughness. I doubt that any of this will actually happen after reading Bochy’s post game comments.
Bochy, on the other hand is a different story. Unless he is being told who to play, his line-up order and selection are weak at best. Bochy mis-manages too many games. His strategy at times makes you wonder how he got this far. Were stuck with him for now…God help us.
Every ab for Castillo, is one less for Bowker. Aurilia needs to play third, and Bowker needs to be an every day starter at first. Burriss and Denker need to play. I realize Vizquel can win games with his glove…but just cannot have a sub-Mendoza line hitter in your line-up. Unfortunately, I see the same old pattern continuing.
Let’s not forget…we’re only six out…because were in the NL worst.
You can’t assume that every game pitched in Zito’s stead would have been a win. But even assuming that that would be the case, would it really be worth it to shut Zito down given that his removal would make this a .500 team? The point of this year has always been to gauge what we’ve got in order to plan for the future. The Giants are paying Zito too much for him not to be part of the future. Recent starts have given us reason for some hope–fewer walks, more strikeouts, better velocity–so I personally don’t see a reason to change anything right now.
I vote we cut ties with Zito entirely. The problem with keeping him around is that the Giants keep falling into the “He’s pitching bad, but…” syndrome:
“He’s been bad, but in his start against Cleveland he didn’t walk anyone so maybe he’s conquered his control problems.”
“He’s been bad but he hit 88 MPH against the Cubs, so maybe he’s finally regained his fastball.”
“He’s been bad but he really got squeezed by the umpire in his last start, so maybe he’s better than he looks.”
I can see the same thing happening next year and the year after if the Giants don’t bite the bullet. Zito will have three or four bad starts, followed by a good start that encourages the Giants to keep sending him out there, then a few more bad starts, and before we know it he’ll be 4-14 and the Giants will be out of the race.
Zito doesn’t strike many people out, and his control is below-average. It is unfair to his teammates to keep him in the rotation, and it is unfair and depressing for the fans to have to watch this every fifth game. The result has been that instead of focusing on the many things that have gone right this year, the media and the fans are preoccupied with this continuing story of unmitigated failure, that highlights everything thst has gone wrong with the organization. When Arizona reached this point with Russ Ortiz they cut him and ate the rest of his contract, and the next year they won the division. I recognize that the Giants are on the hook for way more $ than ARZ was, but I still say we should vote Zito off the island.