Two people have written articles about Brian Sabean the last couple of days, one relatively positive, the other, not. The first one I’ll mention is written by William Gum:
…. Among current general managers, only Kevin Towers of the San Diego Padres has enjoyed a longer tenure with the same club than Sabean. He’s held his position longer than any other GM in Giants’ history. Sabean brought the Giants a wild card tiebreaker, a wild card, three NL West division championships and a National League Pennant. Most importantly, he turned around a chronic loser (six losing records in seven years).
…. Sabean turned the Giants around quickly, and gave the team a good decade of winning results. He obviously had a good strategy, built primarily around Barry Bonds and trading away his younger talent for proven veterans to fill out the lineup.
Gum is writing from I don’t know where, but he don’t know jack. There is only one reason the Giants have won anything in the last decade, Barry Bonds, and Barry Bonds alone. I have catalogued Sabean’s mistakes here ad infinitum, so I won’t again, but, please, Mr. Gum, read some of my archives before you start telling us that Brian Sabean has done a good job. Even if all you consider are finances, Sabean has flushed millions, tens of millions of dollars down the toilet on completely replaceable production at every position on the diamond, for ten years.
…. He certainly wasn’t afraid of moving fan favorites like Kirk Rueter and Matt Williams and Russ Ortiz.
Huh? Sabean gave Reuter a two-year extension worth $18 million dollars about ten minutes before Woody’s arm fell off, he traded Russ Ortiz away for a guy that was out of baseball in 18 months (while Ortiz went on to win another 40 games over he next three seasons).
The Williams deal represents one of the few trades that Sabean made that actually worked, along with the deal that netted Jason Schmidt. I can’t think of another one off hand, which tells you everything.
The other article was written by John Peterson, and is more firmly grounded in reality, as Peterson rates Sabean as the worst GM in all of baseball:
…. Brian Sabean is not a good general manager, no matter what anyone says. Still, he was once considered a top GM, responsible for assembling Giants teams that finished either first or second in the division from his first year, 1997, to 2004– a span of eight years. That is no small achievement. In 1996 the team went 68-94, but in ‘97 they won 90 games. How did he do it?
First, he replaced 1B Mark Carreon and his inadequate .317 OBP with JT Snow, acquired for pennies on the dollar from the Angels. Snow went on to have his best year ever in ‘97 and a long and respectable career for the Giants. Then he traded star third baseman Matt Williams to the Indians for cheap, useful young players Julian Tavarez, Jose Vizcaino and Jeff Kent. The Giants had young Bill Mueller waiting to take over at third, and Vizcaino and Kent represented solid upgrades over the current options at their positions, with the added bonus of significant upside. Kent quickly realized his potential and become a perennial MVP candidate, winning the award in 2000.
Well, while Snow had a long run with the Giants, I have argued long and hard that Snow was one of the reasons the Giants struggled in their efforts to obtain a championship. Tremendous character and glovework aside, Snow’s anemic bat forced the Giants to look for offense from positions most teams don’t have to, like second base or even short, something the rarely were able to do.
Of course, if I’d known how awful we’d be at first the last three seasons, I woulda been jamming the steroids into Snow’s ass myself 
That said, Peterson has a much clearer vision of what’s really gone on with this team.
…. That Barry Bonds was so astoundingly good that he could carry a roster of aging scrubs long past their primes, is a testament to Bonds’ supreme ability and unnatural career path, not Sabean’s skill as a general manager. How could he have known that Bonds, who was already turning 32 in Sabean’s first year as general manager, would sustain an amazing level of production through age 35, and then instead of slowly declining, become a significantly better player than he had ever been for four more years, through age 39? Sabean could not have anticipated this; no one could. He was just lucky that Bonds’ insane career path masked a continually flawed and uninspired player acquisition and roster construction strategy. It is no accident that, when Bonds lost most of 2005 to injury, the Giants finished under .500 for the first time since 1996.
Sabean made bad free agent signings, bad trades, and bad decisions all around. Of course, in eleven years that’s bound to happen, but Sabean has had more than his share. Everyone knows about the trade of Francisco Liriano, Boof Bonser and Joe Nathan for average catcher A.J. Pierzynski. Otherwise Sabean has not been burned terribly by the prospects he likes to deal for veterans. He prefers to pay free agent value or higher for his old players. I’m too lazy to count how many 32-to-36 year olds on the verge of breakdown Sabean has signed to long term deals, but he has taken it to a new level in the last few years. The team is now a catalogue of ancient players and bad contracts….
Now, there’s a writer who’s actually paid attention to the Giants over the last decade. Anyway, both pieces deserve your attention as a Giants fan. If you read them, and decide to backtalk, tell ‘em where they can go for the real scoop on the dealings of our hapless GM; OBM.
24 Backtalkers
I agree with you on just about everything but JT Snow — at the end, yeah, he wasn’t worth a great deal, but for a number of years he was a solid member of the team and did a lot of little things that don’t always show up in the stats (like leading off the 9th inning with a 13-pitch AB and then hit a single or walk). And of course while Sabean exaggerated the impact of his defense, he really was quite excellent with the glove. He also had that great second half towards the end of his career that was fun to watch. All in all, I have far bigger complaints about players Sabean has acquired than JT Snow.
I think that JT was a solid acquisition originally but to sign him to multi-year deals for 7+ million per season was idiotic. His defense was great but honestly who cares. He’s a first baseman. I remember tons of at bats with guys on base and on the 13th pitch he popped up. Again. I remember tons of times screaming at the radio listening to post game comments made by Snow talking about how everyone was a veteran and they know what they’re doing and they don’t need a ton of interference from the coaching staff. Really? You mean you knew what you were doing when you had a runner on second with one out and as a lefty didn’t pull the ball to at least move the runner over?
Those veteran clubs Sabean put together were the worst at playing the game correctly. They just waited for Bonds to hammer one out.
I wouldn’t complain about Snow as much if his name was Todd Helton because that guy plays defense and can actually hit.
Granted in the pantheon of Sabean stupidity he wasn’t the biggest blunder but it really felt like he was re-signed because he was already here.
Brian Sabean did a fine job as Giants GM from his hiring in late 96 thru the World Series in 2002. Very few (if any) of his personal decisions had a negative impact and many (if not most) had a very positive impact. I further agree with the talkback above that JT was one of the very sucessful adds. Where Sabean went wrong was his refusal to find a young superstar offensive replacement for Kent to pair with Bonds and ultimately replace Bonds and instead decide to spend the Giants money on multiple declining offensive role players.
We also can not forget the contribution of one Peter Magowan to the decline of our Giants. Peter’s fued with Baker and his desire to get more credit for the Giants was also a contributor. Peter got too involved (believing himself to be a good judge of baseball talent) and handcuffed what Sabean could do. There is very little doubt in my mind that it is Peter (not Brian) that is responsible for Barry Zito. Peter wanted the credit and I think he has now earned it. Give Peter the lions share of the credit for the colapse of the Giants with Brian playing a significant but a lessor role.
“Where Sabean went wrong was his refusal to find a young superstar offensive replacement for Kent to pair with Bonds and ultimately replace Bonds and instead decide to spend the Giants money on multiple declining offensive role players.”
I completely agree… passing on Vlad Guerrero was such an obvious move and clearly the exact point (along with giving Dusty Baker the boot) that the franchise started its decline. I really have no problems with the way Sabean handled the team prior to the end of the world series in 2002.
[...] Philadelphia Will Do wrote an interesting post today on …. SabeanHere’s a quick excerpt Two people have written articles about Brian Sabean the last couple of days, one relatively positive, the other, not. The first one I’ll mention is written by William Gum: …. Among current general managers, only Kevin Towers of the San Diego Padres has enjoyed a longer tenure with the same club than Sabean. He’s held his position longer than any other GM in Giants’ history. Sabean brought the Giants a wild card tiebreaker, a wild card, three NL West division championships and a National League [...]
[...] by William Gum: ??. Among current general managers, only Kevin Towers of the San Diego Padreshttp://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2008/05/01/sabean/ARNOLD: Nine-year-old saves family from fire Jefferson County JournalJordan Gross is like any other [...]
the trade acquisitions of Robb Nen and Ellis Burks were also good deals. Livan Hernandez was a good deal for one season. The 1997 and 2002 deadline deals were good short term deals. Other than that, Sabean should be fired. He has presided over the decline of a proud franchise with stunning ignorance.
Couple points…
As great as Bonds was (and he was great), baseball isn’t a one-man sport. Look at Ted Williams: he played 16 or 17 years in Boston and performed better than perhaps any other player in baseball history. At times he was surrounded by other Hall of Fame talent, including Bobby Doerr. And yet the Red Sox won only one pennant during Williams’ career (1946). This mostly has to do with the Yankees’ dominance during those years, but you can’t necessarily argue that having the best player in the sport automatically means you ought to win the World Series.
Looking at Sabean’s record, he was generally quite successful up until the ‘02-’03 offseason. You may only remember the Williams and Schmidt trades off the top of your head, but there were quite a few others: the White Flag deal in ‘97, the acquisition of Nen after that year, the trade of Darryl Hamilton for Ellis Burks, the acquisition of Livan Hernandez, picking up Felix Rodriguez for nothing, the Snow deal (he may not have been brilliant but what did Allen Watson ever contribute?), Lofton, etc. etc. During those first six or so years, the only move Sabean made that backfired was the contract given to Marvin Benard, and even that didn’t cripple the team.
From ‘97 to ‘04, the Giants (I believe) had the fourth best overall record in the majors behind the Yankees, Braves, and A’s. They won 90+ for five consecutive seasons, made four postseason appearances, and came very close to a title. That level of sustained success shouldn’t be taken for granted, and if we blame Sabean for the mess he’s created since then (which we should), then he should also be given credit for being the architect of that successful run.
Since ‘03, he’s been a terrible GM. He should lose his job, of course. But I just don’t buy that Bonds was solely responsible for the Giants’ success. Largely? Sure. Entirely? No.
Who are these guys? Gum? Peterson? Somebody we’re supposed to know about? It can’t because of what they have written is particularly insightful or fresh, because if it is, they are about 3 years behind. Or was that your whole point?
The thing that is killing me right now, is that the Giants in spite of the fun we are having with Bowker, Lewis, Bengie, and even Velez hitting a little bit, they are still last in MLB in runs scored at 92 on a pace to score a franchise low of 520. The San Francisco all time worst was 1985 when they lost 100 games and scored only 556 runs. And this collection of fruitcakes is on a pace to score even less.
Yet what do we read and hear and see from MSM? BARRY FUCKING ZITO IS GOING TO THE BULLPEN OH MY FUCKING WORD ITS THE END.
Oakland goes out and resigns Frank Thomas and kicks the shit of the Angels and is all alone in first place for the temporary time being after doing a complete “roster dump”. So much for the experts predicting a 200 loss season for the A’s. And once again Billy Beane and Co. make the Giants management group look like the chumps that they are.
Meanwhile, Barry Bonds is healthy, and whose bat could actually have made a difference this year i(how many times late in close games have we had to sit and watch chumps like Rich Aurilia, Steve Holm, and Ball Dude pinch hit with the lead run in scoring position?) who would fill the stadium again one last season, and actually bring some excitement to this moribund Independent League Poser franchise when Lincecum, Sanchez, Cain or Wilson aren’t on the pimple. Yet he is shunned by Magowan. I’m not buying any of it. Nada.
I have no doubt in my mind at all that Selig held the threat of supension over the head of Magowan and that this is why MaGowan parted ways with Barry. I just do not buy that Magowan actually thought this is what most Giants Fans wanted.
I was just using their work as a starting point to the conversation.
I agree that Bonds isn’t the only reason the team won. Jason Schmidt, Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks, Felix Rodriguez, Robb Nen, Russ Ortiz, Kenny Lofton, Tim Worrell, Ray Durham, Jose Cruz, Jr., Reggie Sanders, Shawn Estes, Scott Eyre, Bill Mueller, Rich Aurilia, and yes, JT Snow all provided huge contributions to the Giants’ run of success. If you take the hyperbole down a couple of notches, though, it becomes hard to argue with the idea that Bonds made mediocre- to slightly-above-mediocre teams good or even great. I think Sabean should get a lot of the blame for overpaying for old, veteran, “OBP? I’ve gotcher OBP right here!” type veterans. But I also think that ownership’s failure to open up the purse strings and pursue any number of top flight free agents over the year to compliment Bonds opens them up for a lot of blame, too.
We heard a lot about how building a team was an art, not a science, and how Sabean’s scrap-heap pickups were the result of a real baseball man making decisions that we lowly fans–the lunatic fringe–could never understand. Now we’re seeing what happens when your “art” consists of giving too much money to Neifi Perez and Shawon Dunston and Eric Davis and Dave Roberts and on and on, and given Sabean’s recent history, it’s going to take a real turn-around, some really obvious-on-their-face good moves for him to regain confidence from the fans.
[...] over at OBM, is talking Sabean and has some nice back-talk going on in the user comments section. Head on over to see what the [...]
this is why McGowan parted ways with Barry.
McGowan finally hit his Barry bottom at the All-Star Game. He was obviously furious and embarrassed that Bonds couldn’t be bothered to take even a ceremonial swing in the HR contest as a way of saluting the locals who pushed his vote total over the top.
Had a party to go to.
Whether it is harassment from Hubert Selig, or Magowan’s petulance at Bonds disdain for participating in things outside the foul lines, neither of these seems to be a valid baseball reason for keeping Bonds away (who expressed publicly his desire to continue playing here). But then again, the current management group, unlike Oakland, seems to make decisions based upon personalities, rather than baseball principles in the last several years.
In the first 29 games of this year, the Giants have lost 5 games by one run. Not played in one run games…but lost by one run. This from the lowest scoring team in MLB 93 runs– 3.2 runs per game. Thats about 1 run every three innings. Pretty exciting huh? When Cain, Lincecum and Sanchez start, they give up an average of 3.0 runs (54 runs in 18 games).
But Bonds is not worthy. Zito is a $126 million Frankenstein that Dave Righetti will TRY TO CONVERT to Shawn Estes. This is the guy this pathetic organization is going to continue to devote its resources to rehabilitating, but the only effort made towards Bonds was to call in the cleaners to the park, and erase every fucking thing that had Bonds imprint upon it?
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Talk about stupidty.
Giants pitching coach Dave Righetti said he was not aware of any health concerns.
After answering a barrage of questions for a second straight day Tuesday, Zito got to work with Righetti during a bullpen session. The velocity likely won’t return, said Righetti, who dealt with a similar case when Shawn Estes had to change his ways in 2000 while dealing with a shoulder injury.
“How can you throw harder? I’ve never seen it, other than a guy getting hurt and getting a new arm,” Righetti said. “I think he can win with the stuff he’s got. He needs to compete against himself. Right now he’s in the world where he’s dealing with a lot of other things instead of competing against the other team. … “I told him, ‘I don’t care if you fly to Africa in between starts. If you get people out, I’ll pay for it.’”
Righetti figures Zito might get his confidence back with a couple of successful innings of relief.
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I’ll tell you where he can get his confidence back. By pulling pigs out of his ass because thats about as likely as him ever being close to being worthy of even 5 more fucking minutes of time or five cents worth of resources. Stupid signing. Now a pathetic attempt to upgrade a cesspool into a septic tank. Its still all shit on the inside.
I am curious though about one aspect of the free agent signing situation in San Francisco. I read comments about how the Giants failed to sign Guererro to a deal but I can’t help but think there was no way in hell he was going to play here.
It seems to me he hated Felipe Alou during his Expo’s days and simply was not going through that again. We balk at the idea that the Giants wouldn’t match the Angels offer of 12 million per year but I think it’s because to play for the Giants it would have taken more then 25 million per year.
He wasn’t going to sign here. When management said they couldn’t afford him its because he said something like “you don’t have enough money to get me to play here.”
Unfortunately they managed to come up with Zito’s outrageous offer to get him to pitch here. His contract screams out “I don’t want to pitch here but if your dumb enough to pay me 126 million then ok”
That’s exactly it. Anyone can be induced to sign, even if they initially say they don’t want to. What about Carlos Beltran? He was the exact player we needed. We never even made an effort. And just keep this in mind, the minute they gave Zito the $126 million, and then league average Aaron Rowand $55 million, every word they said about not being able to afford these guys became a lie. It was never the mortgage payments, or they small market media income, or whatever. It was always about their belief systems about how to build a team. “If we gave Guererro $15 million per, we couldn’t afford Michael Tucker, Edgardo Alfonzo, Neifi Perez, Shawon Dunston and Pedro Feliz. We wouldn’t be able to field a team.” Remember when Sabean fed us that lie?
the vlad not wanting to sign here is untrue
vlad’s relationship with alou was fine, and in fact had he been approached, his mother (whom he trusts implicitly) would have pushed him to sign
they never went after him
here is the valid baseball reason why bonds is no longer with the team….
he cant play left field anymore….his knees are gone
enough with the bonds should still be here talk
i saw the tail end of mays career…it was embarressing
barry should not go through this
the a’s were stupid….they shoulda signed barry
you want a new park….get barry….he will fill the stands
All of that would be true except for the fact that Bonds wasn’t, and isn’t at the end of his career. He was one of the premiere hitters last year and by most metrics played a league average left field.
I assume since you did not dispute the actual points I made, that you agree with them
Peterson here. I’m no expert on the Giants (I’m a Mets fan), so I probably mis-characterized and overgeneralized some of Sabean’s tendencies as GM. I am writing a whole series on every GM in baseball, and I hope that each article provokes as much discussion as this one has. I have learned a lot.
I think the most telling incident in Sabean’s career is when he intentionally forfeited the Giants’ 1st round pick by signing Michael Tucker, citing a weak draft and a lack of interest in paying a 1st round draftee. When you flat out admit that you are incompetent at drafting, it’s time to get out of the business. The incident also shows that the Giants are far more interested in making money than fielding a competitive team on a long-term basis. Of course those two goals are not mutually exclusive, but it’s a lot easier to do the former and not the latter.
John,
I’m not sure, but if you are feeling like you need to defend yourself, you must have misread my piece. I was saying that you hit the nail on the head. Gum is the writer who I thought missed the boat on Sabean.
John,
I know. I was just weighing in. Plus someone was like, “Peterson? Who the hell is that?” and I was just like, “Here I am. What’s up?”
Thanks for the credit.
John
[...] by William Gum: ??. Among current general managers, only Kevin Towers of the San Diego Padreshttp://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2008/05/01/sabean/Acquisition work force grows 4 percent in 2007 Federal TimesThe federal acquisition work force grew [...]