Comments on: …. Where is he?

By: marc

marc — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:53:54 +0000

so many posts….

I have to think that 5mph off your fastball in a couple of years has to be physical. That’s not natural to lose it that quickly. As pitchers (or any player) ages, they tend to lose little bits of their pure “athletic” ability, and need to adjust.

I tend to think that Zito may have been pitching on fumes for a couple of years before he came to the Giants, may be trying to pitch as if he’s still 23, but just can’t get by on that any longer. Whether he can change or not, or has a lousy pitching coach (I’m not a fan of Righetti), I don’t know, but the scary thing is if he is pushing it up to plate as mia suggests, he’s a major injury waiting to happen. Amazes me sometimes that teams make such a huge investment and yet don’t have swarms of highly paid people all over him trying to figure out what’s wrong. Because he is bad. BAD. And it can’t be just because “well that happens sometimes”.

He’s been in the bigs for quite a few years now – he probably does know how to pitch. Whether he’s pitching or throwing, and needs to stop damn quick doing the latter, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s quite fair comparing anybody to a Greg Maddux or a Trevor Hoffman, but still, Hoffman you watch and wonder “how in hell does he get anybody out?”, but he does. And he certainly was a different pitcher 15 years ago.

By: John

John — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:36:40 +0000

I agree with Robert. It seems that Zito IS washed up, and that this is the end of his ever being able to be effective again. Let’s be frank, NO pitcher has ever, EVER been a long-term success without being at or above the league average for strikeouts, and Zito is just below it, meaning, he has no margin for error.

The team’s move to sign him to this contract IS evidence of their panic over being unable to get anyone to sign with the team, and their need/idiotic decision that they needed to make a splash of some kind.

Of course, had the team chosen to go after any one of the quality, top-flight free agents available over the last half decade, they wouldn’t be panicking, they’d be contending, and then free agents would WANT to come here.

Uhhhhhhhhhhh…….. Bleh.

By: Jay T.

Jay T. — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:15:33 +0000

I agree they should let him surf… just for the mental aspects of it. If he gets hurt, so what? It’s not like he’d be a great loss at his current state.

By: Robert

Robert — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 18:25:13 +0000

If you look at Zito while, for a moment, ignoring that he’s a Giant and ignoring that huge contract (which removes a huge emotional investment from your judgement) you will see a pitcher who is on the way down. If he were just pitching wild I’d say the change of teams, leagues, and the free agent money might be messing with his head, and I’m sure it’s a factor, but he has lost 5 mph off his fastball.
Does Zito have a physical problem that the Giant organization or that Zito is keeping secret? If so, they ought to send him to the DL. If he is healthy, and this is his best physical performance level, he is washed up.
It seems likely that Zito is washed up, that the Giants signed him in a panic when they discovered there were no free agents willing to sign with the team – were, in fact, taking less money to go elsewhere. This decision was made at the highest level; that is the only way to account for nobody having been fired. Nobody else could commit such a colossal blunder and keep their job.
When the team’s decision to sign Zito to this unprecedented contract is taken in combination with the team’s demonstrated inability to produce position players in their minor league system, the team’s track record of signing end-of-the-line vetrans, and the team’s blatantly false promises to go with a youth movement, it is painfully clear (painful to those of us who are emotionally invested) that the current owners and their management are incompetent. The sickening reality is that the Giants are in very bad hands. It is an ugly, ugly thing.

By: Kent

Kent — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 05:30:27 +0000

No, he peaked in his early 20s. He didn’t get much better after what (?) age 25 (?) (worse even) and hitters began to figure him out. It’s not his “fault” per se, it’s a hard game and just about every player follows some sort of pattern. He doesn’t have throwing ability nor does he have much pitching ability any longer. Sure, he’s a lot better than I am, but he’s not what he was and what he was he was years ago. He was declining when he was sought and signed by the Giants and most of us knew that. (I wasn’t against signing him; I was against “those years and that money.) It’s not a personal attack to say that he’s not a very good pitcher any longer. To me, it’s just a statement of the obvious. We have two good pitchers: Cain and Lincecum.

I agree with +mia on this. Zito’s a slower version of Jarrod Washburn, a much more expensive one too.

By: Matt Schiavenza

Matt Schiavenza — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 03:15:52 +0000

“never that good to begin with?” I usually agree with you mia, but this is off-base. As lousy as he is now, the 2001-2002 Zito was certainly one of the best pitchers in the game. It wasn’t smoke and mirrors, either- look at his strikeout numbers. You can’t post a 2.75 ERA over 229 innings in the Major Leagues with 182 strikeouts without a hell of a lot of natural ability.

He’s like any number of pitchers who lost his stuff and hasn’t learned how to compensate. Here’s hoping, for the sake of the Giants, he will.

By: +mia

+mia — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:43:42 +0000

One point I forgot to mention. Zito had an outstanding top-down curveball that was unique. That was his out pitch. Very few pitchers could throw that same pitch for strikes, so the only time they saw it was when Zito pitched, unlike sliders, 4 seamers, 2 seamers, splits, forkballs, circle changes cutters, etc. The 12 to 6 curve ball fell out of favor when the strike zone changed some years ago, and the transition to sliders took place. It is a relatively easy pitch to teach if you can get ahold of the student at a young enough age, and teach him to throw from one of the two uppermost arm slots. Zito’s problem partly stems from the strikezone shifting back down after being up, and what was once a strike is now a ball. Kirk Reuter experienced similar difficulties when the strike zone was raised and he lost his 3 inches off the outside corner just below the knees. For Zito, same problem, just a different pitch in a different part of the strike zone.

By: +mia

+mia — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 01:18:16 +0000

Greg Maddux is and always has been an excellent athlete. He is now 42 years old, yet still pitches 85+ mph with incredible command and outstanding movement. Zito is a pie throwing 29 years old with the arm strength of your typical mediocre high school pitcher. You don’t have to take my word for it, just watch him. Incidentally, Maddux regularly threw in the 90s, in his prime, as did his older brother Mike. He has made numerous adjustments over the years…cirlcle change, split finger, variations on his cutter and so forth. In order to do these things, you have to have a good natural throwing ability. Seaver did the same for years–adding to the lie that he had lost his fastball, and relied strictly on his curve for outs. This was before radar readings were in wide use, but for years, guys would sit on his curveball, and he would pump over one 90mph+ fastball after another, and guys would go back to the dugout cursing themselves at how they couldn’t catch up to to Seaver’s fastball. People like to think of Maddux as being a softie finesses guy because that is what MSM likes to write and talk about. What they miss is that Maddux has an outstanding natural throwing motion, and is basically throwing from the same arm slot that he did 22 years ago. Zito can’t throw from the same arm slot on consecutive pitches. Zito’s delivery is artificial for the reasons stated above. And thats why he is totally lost now. That is why I suggested that one view the deliveries of the pitchers I cited. So, because he lacks natural athletic throwing ability, he has no natural muscular instincts, like Maddux, to adjust to reduced physical strength or mental adversity or whatever else is bugging him at the moment. While on the surface it may seem like a valid comparison, there simply is very little that Greg Maddux and Barry Zito have in common, the least of which is natural throwing abilities.

Insofar as soft, if you will note, I point out that Zito is to be commended for his physical and mental conditioning. Soft as in a light framework not given to power but lighter in bone structure than the typical male professional athlete, and particularly pitchers who for the most part, are the bigger players on the roster. Zito also seems to not have as much muscle definition in light of the physical conditioning that he goes through, and little leg strength, as evidenced by his high school fastball. He basically has the body of your everyday 17 year old kook in board shorts. Yes, he had some good years, but if you will read my original post, it was a conflation of a number of events. The fact that he never spent a day on the DL and regularly threw 200 plus innings is a paradox. He does not exert enough physical effort to hurt himself when throwing. I or you or your grandma can throw 200 consecutive pies across the yard every day for 6 months and still never have a rotator cuff problem. So that “injury free” arguement is not very valid.

Go back and compare the way he throws to Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum or Merkin Valdez or even Jack Taschner. All of these guys have good strong natural throwing motions. Zito does not. He pushes/flips the ball, and it is mostly upper body–which is typical for a Dick Mills student. Hope this clarifies for you what I am talking about.

By: SmackYouWithFacts

SmackYouWithFacts — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:02:20 +0000

The point isn’t that his velocity is down, the point is he is being ridiculed as a make believe pitcher, one who shouldn’t be out there in the first place. His velocity IS down, so is his command…he had those before, therefore he can have them again. That doesn’t make him soft. Goofus brings up and excellent point about his durability.

By: Jim

Jim — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:54:48 +0000

But there haven’t been many successful pitchers (other than knuckle-ballers) with below-average fastballs and just fair control. I really think Zito needs to get back to at least the 86-MPH range to have much chance of turning things around…