Barry Zito fell to 0-5, and has everyone looking for answers.
…. Bochy responded to a question about Zito by saying, with lips clenched, “It was not a good night, not a good outing for him. I’ll leave it at that.”
…. Zito was not happy either. Nor did he make any excuses. “We came out and we capitalized on Webb’s mistakes,” he said. “They gave me a lead of 3-0, and I feel like shit. I let them back in the game. I gave them two runs in a shutdown inning, and then I went out in the fourth and gave up a hit to Webb.”
…. When Randy Winn was asked about the team losing confidence in Zito, he said, “I think that’s a little strong. I think he would say he hasn’t pitched the way he’s capable of. But if we get a few breaks today, a few bounces go differently, and we could have had a different outcome.”
…. Defeat’s harshest glare still fell on Zito, who entered the game with the National League’s lowest run support (1.23) and endured four unearned runs in his previous two starts. “It definitely doesn’t feel good to let these guys down,” Zito said. “These guys are playing their hearts out. They did what they had to do tonight. I didn’t do my job tonight. I think it’s important for me to let them know, ‘Stick with me. I’m going to get myself out of this.’ … That’s what a team does; it picks up for guys who are scuffling. They’re all great guys so I know they’re going to do that.”
It’s hard to argue that it’s not Zito’s fault, he has been terrible, but less than a run and a half of run support puts an awful lot of pressure on a pitcher. However….
Zito’s pitched 25 innings, allowed 34 hits (11 of them for extra-bases), 12 walks, just 10 strikeouts, and batters are running out an just shy of MVP-level .321/.377/.509 .886 OPS line against him. His 84 mph fastball, lack of location, and inability to make hitters miss combine to make him vulnerable in all situations. Right now, he is lost, and nobody on this team seems able to help him find his game.
Then again, maybe losing 5 miles off your fastball (for whatever reason) means he is lost and will never be found. I’m wondering why nobody seems concerned with why he’s lost his fastball. Mechanics could hardly be the sole reason for such a dramatic decline. Is he injured, and pitching through it?
I don’t know, but something’s gotta give. Even in a year where competing is a virtual non-issue, no team can just sit there and watch their most expensive player fail like this.
21 Backtalkers
Jesus his curve is down to 84????? I saw him last year at Shea and it was 89, still slow but 84 is terrible. He’s a mystery, how has he fallen so far from grace?
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So far this year, Zito has been a complete bust. Is it the fastball? Is it because he can’t locate his pitches? Is he still trying to live up to the second biggest contract handed out to a pitcher? It could be a number of things. All I know is he better find it, or we’re going to have a solid #5 guy making primo #1 money for years to come.
If Zito doesn’t turn it around over the next month or so, I’ll bet you ANYTHING that he goes on the DL for a few weeks or even months as a move to save face, both for himself and for management. Oh, he was just injured and trying to play through it… that’ll be the story. Mark. My. Words.
It’s the fastball…when Zito threw in the low-90s, his fastball set up his curveball beautifully, but at 84mph it just can’t. Add to that his curveball has lost its “bite”, and you can see why Zito is so hittable.
Do we know of any pitchers who suddenly lose five miles on their fastball, only to gain it back? I can’t think of any at the moment, but hopefully Zito will buck the trend. He’s only 30, isn’t he?
Its simple. Zito does not have and never had natural throwing ability. He pushes the ball. He is a classic pie-throwing weenie. His windup is completely supercilious in that it does nothing to load up his legs, hips, back, shoulder or any damn thing in preparation for the pitch other than to get his hands to his belt buckle. See Tim Lincecum, Tom Seaver, or even the erratic Matt Cain for good examples of natural throwing motions enhanced by an effective windup.
He strikes me as a rather nonathletic individual with a soft body more suited for wake boarding, who through extensive private lessons and over-coaching was taught how to pitch at a very young age. In that regard he is little different than hundreds of thousands of other such kids in each generation who are the prodigies of star-struck parents, carefully schooled to become “pitchers”. Not really a whole lot different than stage mothers of aspiring child actors. Zito appears to be an outlier who managed to snake his way through the system with his “learned” and artificial skills. Its not odd really, considering the large number of “Zitos” that come up through the years. The surprise is really that so few actually do make it and are actually culled before hitting the show.
MLB is like any other business in many ways. Some success is predetermined. For some it is not what you know, but who you know. And for most, a lot of it is being in the right place at the right time. Zito’s career seems to be a confluence of all those along with maintaining a high degree of proficiency in his artificially acquired skills through hard work and dedication and a focused mental approach to the craft. For this he deserves much credit.
However, he is like a lot of golfers who while they may be good golfers for awhile, they are not very good athletes, and have little natural athleticism to fall back upon when they run into adversity. Zito is not a natural athlete in the classic sense of the word, and as such, has little native ability to pull himself through difficult times.
Because his pitching is predicated upon artificial skills, if his pitches are not perfect, he is horrible. Its not so much that he lost 5 mph on his fastball. Its as mentioned a couple of days ago–he cannot throw his curveball for strikes. Even if by some miracle, he could actually find a way to throw 90 mph, he would still not be very good. There is no need whatsoever for any opposing hitter to sit on anything but his horribly inadequate fastball.
Just accept the fact that he never was that good to begin with. He was an anomaly that managed to fool a few of the experts long enough to garner himself a few good seasons and a humongous contract. If this were General Motors, Exxon Oil, Intel, or even a local MacDonalds franchise, the entire management team would be summarily dismissed. If the Giants were a pension fund, the Department of Labor would be suing them in federal court for breach of fidicuary duties, and more than likely have them in front of a grand jury for investigation of fraud. If one didn’t know better, one could make a pretty good argument that the whole Zito contract is nothing but a brazenly zany money laundering operation executed in plain sight.
Zito should be long gone. There is no place for him here that makes any sort of sense. His continued presence is a daily reminder of the garbage can that PacBell Park has become. The house that Bonds built has been transformed into the Coroners Office of MLB careers where every useless over the hill, over paid never was, and never will be, come to have their baseball carcasses embalmed for posterity. The stench of formaldehyde has finally overcome the smell of the rancid garlic fries.
No offense John, but there is no little irony in the fact that it is the transplanted New Yorkers Magowan, and Sabean who are responsible for the emasculation of this franchise. Magowan turned out to be exactly what many of us said he was 4 years ago. A greedy, short-sighted, egomaniac, who let his fandom and worship of baseball cards and all things New York, guide this once insanely awesome and elegant institution into disgrace and disrepute. The Giants have become the Richard Nixon of MLB. A disgrace.
Bravo! His fastball’s also flat and the speed changes between his pitchers is not even enough to make Jamie Moyer envious.
This really sounds like you read that A Bridge Too Far article and took it to heart. That article isn’t even finished and the first part was just crap. Zito is soft and good for wake boarding? Soft? What are you talking about?
Normally you are a great poster but when it is about Zito it’s like your ability to reason logically just slips away. Gosh, what a horrible post.
There have been lots of successful pitchers who haven’t dripped with athleticism. A perfect example is Greg Maddux, who’s always struck me as an amazing pitcher with limited athletic ability.
I also disagree with him being soft as it would be very difficult to go so long without missing starts if you weren’t taking care of your body.
But there haven’t been many successful pitchers (other than knuckle-ballers) with below-average fastballs and just fair control. I really think Zito needs to get back to at least the 86-MPH range to have much chance of turning things around…
The point isn’t that his velocity is down, the point is he is being ridiculed as a make believe pitcher, one who shouldn’t be out there in the first place. His velocity IS down, so is his command…he had those before, therefore he can have them again. That doesn’t make him soft. Goofus brings up and excellent point about his durability.
Greg Maddux is and always has been an excellent athlete. He is now 42 years old, yet still pitches 85+ mph with incredible command and outstanding movement. Zito is a pie throwing 29 years old with the arm strength of your typical mediocre high school pitcher. You don’t have to take my word for it, just watch him. Incidentally, Maddux regularly threw in the 90s, in his prime, as did his older brother Mike. He has made numerous adjustments over the years…cirlcle change, split finger, variations on his cutter and so forth. In order to do these things, you have to have a good natural throwing ability. Seaver did the same for years–adding to the lie that he had lost his fastball, and relied strictly on his curve for outs. This was before radar readings were in wide use, but for years, guys would sit on his curveball, and he would pump over one 90mph+ fastball after another, and guys would go back to the dugout cursing themselves at how they couldn’t catch up to to Seaver’s fastball. People like to think of Maddux as being a softie finesses guy because that is what MSM likes to write and talk about. What they miss is that Maddux has an outstanding natural throwing motion, and is basically throwing from the same arm slot that he did 22 years ago. Zito can’t throw from the same arm slot on consecutive pitches. Zito’s delivery is artificial for the reasons stated above. And thats why he is totally lost now. That is why I suggested that one view the deliveries of the pitchers I cited. So, because he lacks natural athletic throwing ability, he has no natural muscular instincts, like Maddux, to adjust to reduced physical strength or mental adversity or whatever else is bugging him at the moment. While on the surface it may seem like a valid comparison, there simply is very little that Greg Maddux and Barry Zito have in common, the least of which is natural throwing abilities.
Insofar as soft, if you will note, I point out that Zito is to be commended for his physical and mental conditioning. Soft as in a light framework not given to power but lighter in bone structure than the typical male professional athlete, and particularly pitchers who for the most part, are the bigger players on the roster. Zito also seems to not have as much muscle definition in light of the physical conditioning that he goes through, and little leg strength, as evidenced by his high school fastball. He basically has the body of your everyday 17 year old kook in board shorts. Yes, he had some good years, but if you will read my original post, it was a conflation of a number of events. The fact that he never spent a day on the DL and regularly threw 200 plus innings is a paradox. He does not exert enough physical effort to hurt himself when throwing. I or you or your grandma can throw 200 consecutive pies across the yard every day for 6 months and still never have a rotator cuff problem. So that “injury free” arguement is not very valid.
Go back and compare the way he throws to Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum or Merkin Valdez or even Jack Taschner. All of these guys have good strong natural throwing motions. Zito does not. He pushes/flips the ball, and it is mostly upper body–which is typical for a Dick Mills student. Hope this clarifies for you what I am talking about.
One point I forgot to mention. Zito had an outstanding top-down curveball that was unique. That was his out pitch. Very few pitchers could throw that same pitch for strikes, so the only time they saw it was when Zito pitched, unlike sliders, 4 seamers, 2 seamers, splits, forkballs, circle changes cutters, etc. The 12 to 6 curve ball fell out of favor when the strike zone changed some years ago, and the transition to sliders took place. It is a relatively easy pitch to teach if you can get ahold of the student at a young enough age, and teach him to throw from one of the two uppermost arm slots. Zito’s problem partly stems from the strikezone shifting back down after being up, and what was once a strike is now a ball. Kirk Reuter experienced similar difficulties when the strike zone was raised and he lost his 3 inches off the outside corner just below the knees. For Zito, same problem, just a different pitch in a different part of the strike zone.
“never that good to begin with?” I usually agree with you mia, but this is off-base. As lousy as he is now, the 2001-2002 Zito was certainly one of the best pitchers in the game. It wasn’t smoke and mirrors, either- look at his strikeout numbers. You can’t post a 2.75 ERA over 229 innings in the Major Leagues with 182 strikeouts without a hell of a lot of natural ability.
He’s like any number of pitchers who lost his stuff and hasn’t learned how to compensate. Here’s hoping, for the sake of the Giants, he will.
the team is going nowhere…so i say send him out everyday…let him be the first to go 0-30
The team doesn’t let him surf any more. This can not be good for his mental well-being after having surfed for a while. I honestly believe that were they to allow him to start surfing again, it would allow him to get centered again and things would pick up.
Also, mia’s post about him not having throwing ability is total BS. The guy won a Cy Young and was among the best pitchers in the league for a few years. You don’t have that long a run of success based on luck.
No, he peaked in his early 20s. He didn’t get much better after what (?) age 25 (?) (worse even) and hitters began to figure him out. It’s not his “fault” per se, it’s a hard game and just about every player follows some sort of pattern. He doesn’t have throwing ability nor does he have much pitching ability any longer. Sure, he’s a lot better than I am, but he’s not what he was and what he was he was years ago. He was declining when he was sought and signed by the Giants and most of us knew that. (I wasn’t against signing him; I was against “those years and that money.) It’s not a personal attack to say that he’s not a very good pitcher any longer. To me, it’s just a statement of the obvious. We have two good pitchers: Cain and Lincecum.
I agree with +mia on this. Zito’s a slower version of Jarrod Washburn, a much more expensive one too.
I agree they should let him surf… just for the mental aspects of it. If he gets hurt, so what? It’s not like he’d be a great loss at his current state.
If you look at Zito while, for a moment, ignoring that he’s a Giant and ignoring that huge contract (which removes a huge emotional investment from your judgement) you will see a pitcher who is on the way down. If he were just pitching wild I’d say the change of teams, leagues, and the free agent money might be messing with his head, and I’m sure it’s a factor, but he has lost 5 mph off his fastball.
Does Zito have a physical problem that the Giant organization or that Zito is keeping secret? If so, they ought to send him to the DL. If he is healthy, and this is his best physical performance level, he is washed up.
It seems likely that Zito is washed up, that the Giants signed him in a panic when they discovered there were no free agents willing to sign with the team – were, in fact, taking less money to go elsewhere. This decision was made at the highest level; that is the only way to account for nobody having been fired. Nobody else could commit such a colossal blunder and keep their job.
When the team’s decision to sign Zito to this unprecedented contract is taken in combination with the team’s demonstrated inability to produce position players in their minor league system, the team’s track record of signing end-of-the-line vetrans, and the team’s blatantly false promises to go with a youth movement, it is painfully clear (painful to those of us who are emotionally invested) that the current owners and their management are incompetent. The sickening reality is that the Giants are in very bad hands. It is an ugly, ugly thing.
I agree with Robert. It seems that Zito IS washed up, and that this is the end of his ever being able to be effective again. Let’s be frank, NO pitcher has ever, EVER been a long-term success without being at or above the league average for strikeouts, and Zito is just below it, meaning, he has no margin for error.
The team’s move to sign him to this contract IS evidence of their panic over being unable to get anyone to sign with the team, and their need/idiotic decision that they needed to make a splash of some kind.
Of course, had the team chosen to go after any one of the quality, top-flight free agents available over the last half decade, they wouldn’t be panicking, they’d be contending, and then free agents would WANT to come here.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh…….. Bleh.
so many posts….
I have to think that 5mph off your fastball in a couple of years has to be physical. That’s not natural to lose it that quickly. As pitchers (or any player) ages, they tend to lose little bits of their pure “athletic” ability, and need to adjust.
I tend to think that Zito may have been pitching on fumes for a couple of years before he came to the Giants, may be trying to pitch as if he’s still 23, but just can’t get by on that any longer. Whether he can change or not, or has a lousy pitching coach (I’m not a fan of Righetti), I don’t know, but the scary thing is if he is pushing it up to plate as mia suggests, he’s a major injury waiting to happen. Amazes me sometimes that teams make such a huge investment and yet don’t have swarms of highly paid people all over him trying to figure out what’s wrong. Because he is bad. BAD. And it can’t be just because “well that happens sometimes”.
He’s been in the bigs for quite a few years now – he probably does know how to pitch. Whether he’s pitching or throwing, and needs to stop damn quick doing the latter, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s quite fair comparing anybody to a Greg Maddux or a Trevor Hoffman, but still, Hoffman you watch and wonder “how in hell does he get anybody out?”, but he does. And he certainly was a different pitcher 15 years ago.