That’s what this is.
“We said from the beginning of our offseason that we would try to improve the club in any way we could,” assistant general manager Ruben Amaro said. “We feel that with the acquisition of Feliz, we have helped to solidify an already productive infield. Pedro is an above average defender who will provide some overall balance to our lineup.”
Feliz gets $3 million this year and $5 million next year. Philadelphia has a $5 million option for 2010 with a $500,000 buyout.
Pedro is an out-making machine who kills far more rallies with his bat than he does with his glove. He is one of the worst everyday regulars of the last twenty years, rivaling only Neifi Perez and a handful of others for overall offensive ineptitude, 20-something home runs notwithstanding.
A GM who cannot see how terrible he is deserves to be tarred and feathered. A GM who goes out and gets him has no business running a team.
David Pinto thinks like me:
Feliz owns a .276 career OBA on the road, and hasn’t had a season with a .300 OBA since 2004. It’s not like he’s a decent hitter with a great glove. He’s a black hole of outs at third base.
21 Backtalkers
[...] Original post here [...]
Depsite the lack of activity, you have to admit that so far this off season Sabean has done a good job of not making any rash decisions. Can’t argue with letting Feliz finally leave (we gave him enough chances, he’s never going to mature into a patient hitter), we didn’t trade our young stud pitchers, the Rowand signing is a decent long-term deal for a high character guy, and frankly the free agent market has been pretty grim so there’s no point signing someone just for the sake of signing someone. Could it be that for ONCE Sabean is actually sitting pat and thinking long term? It’s hard to believe…
I think you’re being a little harsh on Feliz. He plays gold glove defense, and while he’s frustrated me as much as anyone else with his inability to get on base, it’s not like he was last in the league in this category. He had a higher OBP than Craig Biggio, Jose Lopez, Tony Pena, Juan Uribe, Adam Kennedy, Michael Barrett…just to name a few regulars (there are a number of others in the list, too). Even Bengie Molina’s OBP wasn’t that much higher than Pedro’s. And Molina’s D behind the plate is atrocious. On another note, Philly isn’t paying him that much, and if you look at their production from 3B from last year (it was horrendous), you’d see that this makes some sense for them. I’m happy we don’t have to watch him hit for the next 2-3 years on the Giants, but lets lay off this “worst regular other than Neifi Perez” stuff.
John,
I am sorry to see that you are offense snob showing little appreciation for defense. Pedro Feliz was a 15 runs above average thirdbasemen last year when you combine offense and defense. Happy Pete is very likely to remain an above average thirdbasemen throughout his newly signed contract with the Phillies. Here is the evidence:
Last year Pedro’s defense (ARS) saved 27 runs compared to an average defensive thirdbasemen.
http://detroittigertales.blogspot.com/2008/01/ranking-third-basemen-2007.html
Last year Pedro’s offense (BRAA) cost 12 runs compared to an average offensive thirdbasemen.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1112&position=3B
Ummmm…. guys? That’s a horseshit position to take –all of you know as well as anyone that defensive stats are worth only so much– I mean, how seriously can you take a rating system that’s got A-Rod worth one defensive run above an average third baseman? And since when is third base a defense-first position?
Feliz has a career .288 OBA. For a third baseman, that is ATROCIOUS There is no amount of defense that makes up for that, or the fact that he makes between 450 and 500 outs a season. Look at Eric Chavez. In ‘06, he had what looked superficially like a Feliz season, 22 home runs, 72 RBI, 117 hits in 134 games. But due to the fact that he walked 84 times, he only made 368 outs. Think about that…. Feliz makes 100 outs more in a season than Eric Chavez, at a time when Chavez is playing his way out of baseball.
As for my calling him the worst everyday hitter in baseball, I am hardly alone in that assessment. Joe Sheehan and David Pinto are just two off the top of my head who have been saying it as long as I have.
John,
Well, thanks for proving my point that you neither understand or care about defense. Defense does matter weither you chose to accept it or not. The defensive stat I used averages what are considered the very best defensive matrics. Pedro is simply a much better player overall then your blind offensive bias and need to have a wipping boy hatred allows you to admit. And, oh yes, A-Rod is very much an average defensive thirdbaseman. But his offensive value of 83 runs (BRAA) last year clearly made him the best overall thirdbasemen in baseball.
Whenever there is a negative Feliz post, the rainman is sure to follow! There is no doubt that Feliz is a weak offensive third baseman. However, he is going to to team that already has an outstanding offense and can carry his bat for his outstanding glove. He is also going to a park that should maximum his power.
Defensive stats are far from perfect but they are still useful. When 5 independent play by play systems rank a player as number one or two in the majors at his position, that means he is a very strong defender who is saving his team a lot of runs. Defense is very important to a pitching staff at every position. Is defense as important as offense for a 3B? Probably not but I think 3B defense is underrated. I also think he is further above average defensively than he is below average offensively and the numbers back it up. I don’t think he’s a bad signing for the Phillies.
Lee
I, too, think you are wrong on this one, John. Pedro goes from 81 games in monstrous ATT + 9 games in Dodger stadium + 9 in Petco, to 81 in that tiny stadium in Philly and another 20-30 games in some smaller stadiums in the NL east – he’s gonna hit like King Kong. He wouldn’t have hit here in ATT, yes, it’s fine to let him go. But, of what was available and considering where they play their games, Philly made out like bandits. In those small parks Pedro can, occasionally, shoot for RF – with a shot of hitting them out, as opposed to ATT, Petco where they’re just long flyballs.
i agree with frank….phoolies field will help him immensely
and we are losing a gold glove caliber 3rd baseman….to be replaced by???
and please dont say kfran…the kid cant handle the hot corner…ive seen him try…it aint pretty
but man, the phoolie fans are gonna be merciless when he starts swinging at that offspeed shit way outside the zone
What is so hard to understand about the difference between 84 walks and 368 outs of Eric Chavez versus the putrid, useless and most importantly DEMORALIZING hacks of Pedro Feliz’ who put up similar offensive stats but made about 100 more outs than Chavez? And Chavez is a mess in his own right.
What made Bonds great and dominant were the few outs and great plate discipline he exercised, in addition to the power numbers of course. What makes Feliz the piece of shit is that he is the anti-Bonds. Aside from his overrated less than one homerun-per-week average, he makes tons of extra outs and has the plate discipline of a coke headed car jacker. Pedro Feliz is the pause in the line-up that opposing pitchers love to face in the middle of a potentially tough inning. He is the one guy in the lineup that pitchers pitch around to reach. BECAUSE HE IS AN EASY OUT! Because he is so predictable. Because you can throw slop in the dirt and he will either miss it, roll it weakly to SS, or pop it up. Pedro Feliz would be an easy out at a little league field against big-league pitching because he has NO PLATE DISCIPLINE. The ballpark dimensions in Philly won’t help him. He hacks at slop. His hacks don’t produce warning track fly balls, they produce, strike outs, weak grounders and pop flies. Anybody that thinks that after a lifetime of swinging like an infuriated palm tree, Feliz is all of a sudden going to successfully change into an opposite field gapper is on crack or doesn’t know shit about baseball other than what they read on ESPN dot com.
When even a lardhead like Brian Sabaen is willing to acknowledge the extremely limited contributions of a Pedro Feliz on a team with no surplus of hitting, anybody who doesn’t owe the Phillies money should be laughing their ass off
Another ignorant offense only bigot I see.
Good to see Feliz leaving, but even though he’s an atrocious hitter I always kinda liked the guy. Seemed like he played hard and didn’t complain. It’s not his fault he couldn’t recognize a curveball — 99.9% of people on earth can’t do this either, but of course they are not major league regulars…Anyhow, I never bought the argument that Feliz “played stupid,” or had a “bad mental approach” to hitting. He just didn’t have the ability.
The problem wasn’t that Feliz can’t play, but that the Giants’ farm system has been so horrendous that Feliz was a viable option as a regular. Used correctly as a reserve, Feliz can help a good team: he can give the regular 3rd baseman a day off once in a while against a LHP, he can play some late-inning defense, and pinch-hit for the pitcher — that’s a lot of value. It’s not enough to make him a regular, but it’s enough to deserve a job in the ML. But the Giants had so little talent the last few years that they asked him to do things he just isn’t capable of doing.
I have to chime in here just because there are finaly some other voices standing up for the value of defense. Most of the OBM regulars are so offense-oriented that I’ve mostly just bitten my tongue, feeling my opinions would be dismissed – just as John and Mia have jumped on Rainman.
What good is a hotshot young pitching staff if the fielders can’t catch the ball? Are Cain and Lincecum supposed to strike everybody out? Does anyone think that makes baseball sense?
I doubt we’ll ever see the likes of the ’80s Giants homegrown infield of Clark-Thompson-Clayton-Williams, that could field and hit with the best. Remember they were the only entirely homegrown infield in the majors at the time. Has there been one since? Was it any good? I don’t think it’s all the Giants’ farm system’s fault – I think the business of baseball has changed in ways that make that extremely unlikely – not an improvement, in my opinion.
Whatever you think of Feliz, I’ll be very surprised if the Giants are able to fill the position with someone significantly better, and won’t be at all surprised if he tears up Philly.
Hal:
I don’t believe either John or myself is dismissing defense Its that his defense, no matter how stellar, cannot offset 100 outs. Thats what Peliz costs the Giants each year at the plate over and above his offensive and defensive equivalent in Oakland, Eric Chavez. Eric Chavez who is damn near washed up. There is nobody on God’s green earth that can make up defensively an additional offensive outs per year. There is no glove that big. No arm that strong. No feet that move that laterally that quick to make up FOR 100 ADDITIONAL OFFENSIVE OUTS.
Insofar as the Giants pitching is concerned, their 5 best arms, and any hopes for the future are power pitchers Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Jonathan Sanchez, Kevin Corriea and Brian Wilson. All are fully capable of a strikeout an inning. That leaves 18 ground/pop/fly outs over the course of a game. I’ll take my chances with the guy who has a little less lateral movement, a slightly less powerful/accurate arm, slightly harder hands but who is going to cost me 100 less outs per season any day, anytime, anywhere.
And what in the world gives you the idea that he can tear up Philly? The ballpark? Feliz’ problem wasn’t warning track power at PacBell. His problem is plate discipline, and recognition. His numbers would damn near be the same if he were playing in a park with 200ft. fences. Its just as easy to swing at 55 foot sliders in Philly as it is in SF.
Frankly, I hope he has a great season. He is as Jim wrote, a really decent guy and it is truly not his fault that he lacks the skills to be a good hitter. Its not personal. The fault lies with the Giants inability to evaluate, develop, coach, and then manage high quality MLB talent. They have produced not a single impact position player since Matt Williams.
And I agree that they will not be able to fill the position with anybody significantly better. The only reason I say that is because that somebody is likely to be the next great out-machine, Kevin Frandsen. If its one thing the Giants are really good at is developing farm clones. Lance Niekro, JR Phillips, Kevin Frandsen, Cody Ransom, Tony Torcatto, Damon Minor, Todd Linden, Jason Ellison, Adam Shabala and countless other forgettable faces. Nothing will change until Magowan decides that Brian Sabaen and his staff need to be replaced by people who haven’t been passed by their competitors.
100 Outs! Feliz costs an extra 100 outs compared to an average thirdbasemen? What a crock of shit! 100 Outs in 600 plate appearances would be 167 points in OBP. Pedro’s 288 + 167 would be a 455 OBP! You are so full of it that your rants are just laughable.
The Brewers have a damm good homegrown infield with Fielder, Weeks, Hall, and Hardy. The Rockies also might also have have a damm good homegrown infield with Helton, Stewart, Atkins, and Tulowitzki this year if Stewart is ready. The Angels have a pretty good homegrown infield with Kotchman, Kendrick, Figgins, and either Aybar, Izturis, or Wood. Finally, the Indians with Garko, Cabrera, Blake, and Peralta are not bad either. There are more homegrown infields then one might think.
Pedro’s .288 OBP is laughable. ’nuff said.
granted this study does not include 2007, but:
http://baseballevolution.com/richard/feliz2.html
for 2006, Feliz had the 15th lowest OBP in HISTORY (.281) (min 502 PA).
He has the 9th lowest career OBP of all active players with 1000 PAs
He has the 2nd lowest career OBP of all active players with 2000 PAs
He has the 3rd Highest career out percentage of ALL active players with 2000 PAs.
so let’s include 2007:
As per Baseball Perspectus, his offense is below replacement level, his VORP being 30th on the Giants, only above Omar Vizquel and Ray Durham on the Giants among players with 400 PAs.
he was 15th (dead last) in the ML in OBP in 2007 among 3B (min 502 PA).
he was 12th (3rd from last) in the ML in OPS in 2007 among 3B (min 502 PA).
avg 3rd baseman eqa : 0.269
feliz: 0.237 (this is below avg at ANY position except pitcher)
And this is all offset by his fielding ability? How in god’s name could Frandsen be worse?
I’m actually encouraged by this situation. For the first time in many o’ moon the Giants brass made a reasonable evaluation of what it would cost to keep a player. They figured out what Feliz would give them based on his track record, what the going rate is for that type of production is and made a reasonable offer! They didn’t tack on an extra 10 million bidding against themselves, they didn’t add a bunch of years nothing. Then, and this is the incredible part, when that offer was rejected by Feliz they walked away. I’m almost encouraged.
It ’s very easy to bash Pedro Feliz, but he may actually be slight upgrade at 3B for the Phillies.
Sabean’s strategy, or complete lack thereof, for a 3B replacement is completely retarded and should be bashed.
Two viable 3B candidates, Dallas McPherson and Morgan Ensberg were signed for less than $500K a piece last week when Sabean was on vacation. WTF?!?! Given good health, both of these guys are certain to out perform Crede or Feliz.
These signings seem to all but lock up Sabean trading for Crede. God I hope he doesn’t give Kenny WIlliams anything for the gringo version of Feliz with a bad back. He’d cost us $5.2 M vs the pittance Mcpherson or Ensberg will be earning.
What troubles me most is that Sabean has painted himself into a corner. Now we are desperately hoping that Crede is healthy, which won’t be known for another couple months. As insurance against Crede not being healthy, Sabean could have signed Ensberg or Mcpherson for little money. What is the plan now if Crede isn’t healthy? What kind of frigging planning is this? On top of that, the rumor is that we will have to trade Lowry for Crede, which is insane.
FIRE SABEAN 4 YEARS AGO. The paper bags are going to show up at Pac Bell
FIRE SABEAN 4 YEARS AGO.
Yes – and something I never see mentioned in the bash-Sabean sweepstakes. Remember about 5-6 years ago when Feliz was as “untouchable” as Cain or Lincecum are now? The Giants could’ve gotten a king’s ransom for Feliz at that time. I nominate THAT as Sabean’s biggest mistake.
Of course, hindsight is always golden.