Comments on: …. That is the worst loss of the year http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/ Covering the SF Giants since 2002 Wed, 08 Sep 2010 10:15:22 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Kent http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1089 Kent Sun, 26 Aug 2007 04:47:15 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1089 I think that we agree more than we disagree. I claimed that Lowry was "mediocre," yes, that's right, "mediocre." I also added throughout my subsequent posts that "mediocre" was not w/o value and that Lowry DOES have value. I'm referring to TRADE value and I'd be in favor of trading him if, IF, the right deal came around where we could get, say, two good prospects that are, say, two years away from ever playing in MLB. Or, say, a blocked prospect and a 25 man roster player about to lose his job...not because he's bad, per se, but because someone's coming up to take his spot. I think that there are a lot of examples of each and even more in need of an established lefty. I think that we also have potential (and untapped) value in Misch and Correa and that gambling on their improvement lets us dangle Lowry. I don't dislike him as a player and don't know him as a person, but, I still contend that Lowry is really our only bargaining chip to further restock our infield, catching corps, or gasp, improve our already veteran-laden outfield. Unless we want to part with Cain or Lincecum. More than Lowry's status, we really need to find coaches with new and fresh and fucking effective approaches to hitting and pitching. The Giants need to be run more like a business and less like a fraternity. Other than Bonds and Cain and Lincecum, this franchise should be humiliated and incensed that it is where it is...by it's own decisions...yeah, I know. 2008, end the Rags and bow to Mt. Bonds to please, please, please resign for a smaller salary. Now, if they go and sign Torii Hunter to a 7-year contract, I'm going to burn one of my Giants hats. ...ugh, time for some more w(h)ine, eh? Really, seriously, I am drinking wine and watching the Gunners play The Citizens. I think that we agree more than we disagree. I claimed that Lowry was “mediocre,” yes, that’s right, “mediocre.” I also added throughout my subsequent posts that “mediocre” was not w/o value and that Lowry DOES have value. I’m referring to TRADE value and I’d be in favor of trading him if, IF, the right deal came around where we could get, say, two good prospects that are, say, two years away from ever playing in MLB. Or, say, a blocked prospect and a 25 man roster player about to lose his job…not because he’s bad, per se, but because someone’s coming up to take his spot. I think that there are a lot of examples of each and even more in need of an established lefty.

I think that we also have potential (and untapped) value in Misch and Correa and that gambling on their improvement lets us dangle Lowry. I don’t dislike him as a player and don’t know him as a person, but, I still contend that Lowry is really our only bargaining chip to further restock our infield, catching corps, or gasp, improve our already veteran-laden outfield. Unless we want to part with Cain or Lincecum.

More than Lowry’s status, we really need to find coaches with new and fresh and fucking effective approaches to hitting and pitching. The Giants need to be run more like a business and less like a fraternity. Other than Bonds and Cain and Lincecum, this franchise should be humiliated and incensed that it is where it is…by it’s own decisions…yeah, I know.

2008, end the Rags and bow to Mt. Bonds to please, please, please resign for a smaller salary. Now, if they go and sign Torii Hunter to a 7-year contract, I’m going to burn one of my Giants hats.

…ugh, time for some more w(h)ine, eh? Really, seriously, I am drinking wine and watching the Gunners play The Citizens.

]]> By: DonK http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1088 DonK Sun, 26 Aug 2007 04:26:10 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1088 Lowry is not "mediocre." He's a competent, mid-rotation (3/4) pitcher who has the added benefit of being left-handed. He will win 15+ games this season for a last-place team. He'll drive you crazy some nights make you happy on others. Pitchers like this have a lot of value - remember, you've got to put a starter out there 162 times a year, and getting 32 starts from Lowry as a mid-rotation guy isn't a bad thing. At .290, his BABIP isn't outrageously low, and if you accept that Lincecum and Cain can be 1-2 in a rotation and Zito is No. 3, Lowry as a No. 4 starter is a pretty good position (you might want to juggle the order, but that's now they would set up for me). Lowry has some potential for improvement (Aside: I agree -- Rags has to go, now! Maybe someone can help Lowry get over his nibbling fetish). A good young lefty who's also under your control for a few years is a BIG trading chip, especially with this winter's free-agent market largely barren of impact pitchers. I'd have to get a really good, young position player to give him up. Right now, starting pitching and a 43-year-old left fielder are about all this team has going for it. The catching is fair, the infield is a mess and the outfield (aside from that old guy) is mediocre old guys and unproven/marginal young ones. Lowry is the least of the Giants' problems. Lowry is not “mediocre.” He’s a competent, mid-rotation (3/4) pitcher who has the added benefit of being left-handed. He will win 15+ games this season for a last-place team. He’ll drive you crazy some nights make you happy on others. Pitchers like this have a lot of value – remember, you’ve got to put a starter out there 162 times a year, and getting 32 starts from Lowry as a mid-rotation guy isn’t a bad thing. At .290, his BABIP isn’t outrageously low, and if you accept that Lincecum and Cain can be 1-2 in a rotation and Zito is No. 3, Lowry as a No. 4 starter is a pretty good position (you might want to juggle the order, but that’s now they would set up for me). Lowry has some potential for improvement (Aside: I agree — Rags has to go, now! Maybe someone can help Lowry get over his nibbling fetish).

A good young lefty who’s also under your control for a few years is a BIG trading chip, especially with this winter’s free-agent market largely barren of impact pitchers. I’d have to get a really good, young position player to give him up.

Right now, starting pitching and a 43-year-old left fielder are about all this team has going for it. The catching is fair, the infield is a mess and the outfield (aside from that old guy) is mediocre old guys and unproven/marginal young ones. Lowry is the least of the Giants’ problems.

]]> By: +mia http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1077 +mia Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:18:29 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1077 The first rule of Giants On-Field Game Management: Never ever under any circumstances interrupt a previously scheduled nap. It helps build veteran savvy in young pitchers. The first rule of Giants On-Field Game Management: Never ever under any circumstances interrupt a previously scheduled nap. It helps build veteran savvy in young pitchers.

]]> By: +mia http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1076 +mia Sat, 25 Aug 2007 20:16:07 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1076 Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm all for playing the exact players you mention. Really. The problem is that like the guys you cite, they have been preceded by sixteen years worth of similar AAA-dominating Lance-Niekros, Mike Benjamins, and Damon Minors without a single impact player. That in fact, playing "The Kids" who are coming out of a farm system with the brutal track record of the Giants' is preferable to most of the veterans on the 25 man roster is evidence of McManagement's incompetence in matters other than ticket sales and politically- correct public relations. Oh, don’t get me wrong. I’m all for playing the exact players you mention. Really. The problem is that like the guys you cite, they have been preceded by sixteen years worth of similar AAA-dominating Lance-Niekros, Mike Benjamins, and Damon Minors without a single impact player. That in fact, playing “The Kids” who are coming out of a farm system with the brutal track record of the Giants’ is preferable to most of the veterans on the 25 man roster is evidence of McManagement’s incompetence in matters other than ticket sales and politically- correct public relations.

]]> By: Kent http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1059 Kent Sat, 25 Aug 2007 03:20:07 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1059 So yeah, Lowry's mediocre and tonight at least (as I noted) the hits caught up to him. Nice to see Rags come out AFTER it's 6-6 w/2 men on. I wore 19 in high school for him...but he should be fired for some new blood. So yeah, Lowry’s mediocre and tonight at least (as I noted) the hits caught up to him. Nice to see Rags come out AFTER it’s 6-6 w/2 men on. I wore 19 in high school for him…but he should be fired for some new blood.

]]> By: gregory http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1049 gregory Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:39:19 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1049 Half the bloggers want Fransden, half dont. The reason its split is cause the guy has never gotten a real chance to show us if he is for real. And this year... WHY THE F NOT? This year has truly shown just how screwed up this franchise really is. There is no direction. There is no leadership. There is no plan. Management has truly betrayed it fanbase. We have lip service and and under the table hand jobs. The season is lost and has been lost sense July. And still the kids, who yes are most likely not good, are still not given a chance. This is the season to do that and instead we are seeing some of the worst baseball ever from a bunch of has beens. Not to mention how demeaning it must be to all the young guys in the farm system to know even when a player sucks at the MLB level you still wont get a chance. The silver lining of this season would be to see if we have a jewel in the farm system that we dont know about. But instead the Giants are embarrassing themselves by demonstrating just how ignorant this franchise is of its own futility. If ever a team deserved relegation it is the Giants. Half the bloggers want Fransden, half dont. The reason its split is cause the guy has never gotten a real chance to show us if he is for real. And this year… WHY THE F NOT? This year has truly shown just how screwed up this franchise really is. There is no direction. There is no leadership. There is no plan. Management has truly betrayed it fanbase.

We have lip service and and under the table hand jobs.

The season is lost and has been lost sense July. And still the kids, who yes are most likely not good, are still not given a chance. This is the season to do that and instead we are seeing some of the worst baseball ever from a bunch of has beens. Not to mention how demeaning it must be to all the young guys in the farm system to know even when a player sucks at the MLB level you still wont get a chance. The silver lining of this season would be to see if we have a jewel in the farm system that we dont know about. But instead the Giants are embarrassing themselves by demonstrating just how ignorant this franchise is of its own futility.

If ever a team deserved relegation it is the Giants.

]]> By: uncle joe mccarthy http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1047 uncle joe mccarthy Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:45:59 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1047 no mia im talking about kids like nate and velez....both who are tearing up their respective leagues and are under 25 your cynicism is understandable....but unless they play, how will we ever know what they can do (well nate was hitting over 300 when he was sent back down) no mia

im talking about kids like nate and velez….both who are tearing up their respective leagues and are under 25

your cynicism is understandable….but unless they play, how will we ever know what they can do (well nate was hitting over 300 when he was sent back down)

]]> By: Kent http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1033 Kent Fri, 24 Aug 2007 05:25:07 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1033 Thanks for the partially nice comment. Really though, I don't have anything against Lowry and I find him useful as a SP. However, I still contend that he's mediocre, not bad certainly, but not really good either. And, as I wrote, he does have value in the sense that he's young(er) and that he'll have good seasons. But, I think (and I may be wrong here) that we'll see years where his BABIP will rise and so will his numbers. His WHIP and the straight out hits allowed are going to bit him in the ass at some point here. IP H HR BB K ERA+ WHIP 2005 204+ 193 21 76 172 110 1.31 2006 159+ 166 21 56 84 95 1.39 2007 148 136 8 82 82 131 1.47 BABIP is around .290 in each year GB% is around 40% in each year Lowry's been a useful addition to the SF pitching staff to be sure. He was hurt for part of 2006, so that year really wasn't that solid overall, or at least incomplete. He's really only been a SF regular for three seasons. What's more, Lowry is just about our only trading commodity. I don't think that him staying in SF is a bad thing. But I do think that trading him to, say, Seattle for Jeff Clement and "that OF with the name that I'm not going to look up now (not Jones, the other guy)" or Anaheim for two of their like 60 prospect studs. Thanks for the partially nice comment. Really though, I don’t have anything against Lowry and I find him useful as a SP. However, I still contend that he’s mediocre, not bad certainly, but not really good either. And, as I wrote, he does have value in the sense that he’s young(er) and that he’ll have good seasons. But, I think (and I may be wrong here) that we’ll see years where his BABIP will rise and so will his numbers. His WHIP and the straight out hits allowed are going to bit him in the ass at some point here.

IP H HR BB K ERA+ WHIP
2005 204+ 193 21 76 172 110 1.31
2006 159+ 166 21 56 84 95 1.39
2007 148 136 8 82 82 131 1.47

BABIP is around .290 in each year
GB% is around 40% in each year

Lowry’s been a useful addition to the SF pitching staff to be sure. He was hurt for part of 2006, so that year really wasn’t that solid overall, or at least incomplete. He’s really only been a SF regular for three seasons.

What’s more, Lowry is just about our only trading commodity. I don’t think that him staying in SF is a bad thing. But I do think that trading him to, say, Seattle for Jeff Clement and “that OF with the name that I’m not going to look up now (not Jones, the other guy)” or Anaheim for two of their like 60 prospect studs.

]]> By: +mia http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1029 +mia Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:18:15 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1029 Mediocre - lacking exceptional quality or ability; "a novel of average merit"; "only a fair performance"; "in fair health"; "the performance was middling at best" Thats pretty much what I've seen with Lowry. I am neither impressed nor unimpressed. I would be hard-pressed to describe his career as anything other than mediocre within that construct. Completely average. Pitches good some days. Not so good on others. Never exceptionally good. Never exceptionally bad. A little like Rueter, with a better fastball and better change up. He could get better. Or not. On a related note, many are calling for "play the kids". My only question is "What kids?" There are no kids there. A bunch of future Kevin Frandsen's Ortmeir's G-Rods, Notgardos, Lindens, Ellisons, Minors? Yeah. Right. I suspect Magowan and Sabaen will make a lot of noise about Arod who will eventually either re-sign with the Yankees, or go to the Red Sox or Angels. And then they'll sign another redundant outfielder anyway. And some other baseball card to draw in the tourists. They're trapped with some bad players like Roberts, Winn, Molina, Durham, Zito, and Durham through next year. The Farm System is a mess. The next couple of years are going to be like having an enema in the town square. Gross, unsightly, noxious plus expensive. Mediocre – lacking exceptional quality or ability; “a novel of average merit”; “only a fair performance”; “in fair health”; “the performance was middling at best”

Thats pretty much what I’ve seen with Lowry. I am neither impressed nor unimpressed. I would be hard-pressed to describe his career as anything other than mediocre within that construct. Completely average. Pitches good some days. Not so good on others. Never exceptionally good. Never exceptionally bad. A little like Rueter, with a better fastball and better change up. He could get better. Or not.

On a related note, many are calling for “play the kids”. My only question is “What kids?” There are no kids there. A bunch of future Kevin Frandsen’s Ortmeir’s G-Rods, Notgardos, Lindens, Ellisons, Minors?

Yeah. Right. I suspect Magowan and Sabaen will make a lot of noise about Arod who will eventually either re-sign with the Yankees, or go to the Red Sox or Angels. And then they’ll sign another redundant outfielder anyway. And some other baseball card to draw in the tourists. They’re trapped with some bad players like Roberts, Winn, Molina, Durham, Zito, and Durham through next year.

The Farm System is a mess. The next couple of years are going to be like having an enema in the town square. Gross, unsightly, noxious plus expensive.

]]> By: Iain http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/comment-page-1/#comment-1024 Iain Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:04:39 +0000 http://www.onlybaseballmatters.com/archives/2007/08/21/that-is-the-worst-loss-of-the-year/#comment-1024 Yeah...he sure is mediocre...4 years of solid pitching is pretty bad. Usually you speak intelligently but that is the stupidest thing I've read from you. Perhaps you don't think he is as good as good as the numbers say (wins and era) but mediocre? C'mon. Tomko was mediocre. Lowry is a solid young left hander who is now in his 4th season of contributing to the team and being better than average. Yeah…he sure is mediocre…4 years of solid pitching is pretty bad. Usually you speak intelligently but that is the stupidest thing I’ve read from you. Perhaps you don’t think he is as good as good as the numbers say (wins and era) but mediocre? C’mon. Tomko was mediocre. Lowry is a solid young left hander who is now in his 4th season of contributing to the team and being better than average.

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