Marty Cortinas sent me an Q&A about Bonds, and I spent some time on it, so I thought I’d post my response here.
1 – When it comes to politics, no matter what side of the argument you align yourself, you always look at the other side and wonder, how in the world do they view Issue X that way? Isn’t it as clear as day to them that things work the complete opposite? Similarly, I think most every non-Giants fan looks at Barry Bonds and is fairly convinced of his guilt and view him as a poor character, while Giants fans, obviously, revere him. So, is Bonds misjudged or do Giants fans have their head in the sand?
Bonds is both misjudged AND judged fairly. The major sports media outlets have done a terrific job portraying Bonds as the ultimate motherfucker; a bad teammate, a dick to be around, an arrogant asshole, a privileged child of a baseball star, and a jealous, demanding cheater. By doing so, they have reduced the conversation into soundbites and over-simplified questions: “Do you think Barry cheated?” “Do you think Bonds’ should have his records expunged?” “Should Bonds be allowed into the Hall of Fame?”
A clear dialogue is impossible. No one wants to talk about the climate of permissiveness that permeated the game when Bonds did or didn’t decide to use PED’s. No one wants to talk about the absolute fact that all baseball management knew about, and by their silence, endorsed the use of PED’s by any and all players in the game. No one wants to remember the adulation, the astonishment; and the singular joy that the McGwire/Sosa duel produced. And most importantly, the major media writers, broadcasters; and talking heads will not acknowledge that the fans DO NOT CARE AT ALL. The only reason ESPN can run a poll asking whether fans think Bonds cheated is because they’ve run four hundred articles (wrongly) saying that he did. If they hadn’t been beating that constant drum of innuendo and speculation, there’d be no story.
By every indicator you can analyze, baseball has never been as popular as it is now. If Selig and the media would shut up about the “scandal,” it would be gone, forgotten, in an instant. Instead, they keep bringing it up, again and again, a story about how somebody thinks the commissioner should suspend Barry; an article telling us that he could be indicted any minute now; another player thinks he’s a dick…. On and on…. Don’t you think it’s pretty obvious they have absolutely no proof whatsoever that he cheated, that he lied, that he can be taken down? It is to me. But not to Lupica and Verducci and the rest of these custodians of rightness. They will not stop until everyone knows that Barry’s hat is bigger.
2a – Did you read Game of Shadows? What did you think?
I’m at Chapter Six right now. So far, it’s pretty weak. I’m gonna write a review when I’m done.
2b – How do you explain the pictures circa 1990 and the pictures circa 2002? The ever-expanding head size?
Please…. I’m almost the exact same age as Bonds, and I can show you pictures of me at 25 and now, and there’s no doubt every part of my body is bigger, my head, my arms, everything. It’s the stupidest fucking thing in the world to show a picture of a 22-year old and then the same guy at 42 and say, “look, his head is bigger.” Look at pictures of Shac when he was with the Orlando Magic. Look at pictures of Derek Jeter, Tiger Woods, Magic Johnson, Cal Ripken…. I could go on and on. Only an idiot would use Bonds’ head size as proof that he used PED’s. There are plenty of stronger arguments to suggest that he didn’t use PED’s…. he’s never suffered any of the typical injuries associated with steroid and PED use, he’s been able to maintain his astonishing production since the inception of baseball’s drug testing program, both Anderson and Conte have refused to testify that Bonds used PED’s, even though it would have benefited each of them to do so….
3 – Why is it that on the road, Bonds is booed lustily, but when he hits a home run, cheers emerge? Are we that wishy-washy a nation?
People are booing him because the major sports media outlets have made it clear that they should. People are sheep. They cheer for the home runs, because –even though they’ve been told to boo the asshole– they still love being a part of history.
4 – Who is a better home run hitter, Barry Bonds or Babe Ruth? Bonds or Hank Aaron?
Ruth will always be considered the greatest home run hitter of all time. When he hit 59, the record was 29. He changed the way the game was played, offensively. It’s interesting to consider that even though everyone has always known that he was the best offensive player ever; it was only after Bill James and then Moneyball that it became absolutely crystal clear that everyone should try and emulate what he did; regardless of talent or ability. Everyone should try and focus on hitting for power, and avoiding swinging at pitches outside of the strike zone; which Ruth did religiously.
Ted Williams is next in line, by the way, not Hank Aaron. It’s Williams, Ruth and Bonds at the top. Williams gave 5 years if his life fighting WWII, when he was the best hitter alive. If not for that, the record would be his, it’d be 800-plus, and Bonds would have at least another season to catch him. For all-time home run hitters, Araron’s barely in the top ten, that’s for sure. Off the top of my head, Mays, McGwire, Foxx, Mantle, and even Sammy Sosa are better home run hitters than Aaron. Frank Robinson, Reggie Jackson, McCovey…. even Aaron’s contemporaries; players that he blew past in total home runs; even those guys were probably better home run hitters than he was.
Aaron was a good home run hitter who moved to a launching pad of a baseball park entering his age 32 season; exactly when he was beginning the decline phase of his career. Instead of petering out around 550-600 career home runs, like Mays, he was averaging 40 home runs per season for his last 8 seasons. He hit 40 home runs at the age of 39, for crying out loud. Aaron is a crystal clear example of time washing away all of the dirt, and leaving only the statistics; something Bill James wrote about twenty years ago. When he was active, Aaron was NEVER considered the best player in the game. He was perhaps the fourth or fifth best player at any given point in his career; which is why he won but one MVP award. Sure, he got 3000 hits and 755 home runs… If he had played anywhere but Atlanta the last ten years, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.
Look at Willie Mays‘ career and you can see the difference…. Mays hit 47 home runs at 33 years old, 52 at 34, 37 at 35, and that was it, only 100 or so home runs the rest of his career. Aaron hit 248 home runs AFTER he was 35. He was durable, competent, and had good power. If the two players had switched teams at age 32, Bonds would probably still be 100 home runs away from his Godfather; who would have easily averaged 50 home runs a season playing half his games in a ballpark where Aaron was banging out 40.
5 – In the context of baseball history, where does Bonds stand? How do you think his image will change over time?
Bonds is the greatest PLAYER in the history of baseball. His accomplishments will stand the test of time, and within the next twenty years, that will become increasingly clear. Besides his 8 Gold Gloves, he owns virtually every single season offensive record that matters, he’s soon to be the career home run king, he’s got over 500 stolen bases, the batting average, the walks, the 7 MVP’s…. I mean, are you kidding me? Bonds OBP has been over .400 for 17 straight years. When the dust clears, and he’s never had a positive drug test, and all there is the supposition, the made up stories, and the backstabbers with their lies and the, “We think this means this….” bullshit…. When all of that is over, and Bonds has been retired for a decade or more, it will be clear to everyone that they shit all over the best player of all time. Was he a dick? A sure as the sun. Did the writers and broadcasters take it too far in their efforts to make sure we all knew that they were gonna save the children? Just as surely.
Will Bonds be at some ballpark someday with writers and fans crying all over the place, with ballplayers getting goosebumps and going all batshit to shake hands with Bonds in a wheelchair, just like they did with Ted Williams a couple of years ago? Take it to the bank.
Sports News and Resources…
Sorry, it just sounds like a crazy idea for me
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Sports Illustrated…
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article, but it sounds interesting…
John, I wish every writer could approach the topic of PEDs like you do.
One way of thinking about the ‘best’ home run hitters of all time is to compare them all. I did this by looking at Clay Davenport’s all-time translations at BP (here’s the brief explanation of how he does it: http://tinyurl.com/3bphq8), which theoretically put everyone on a ‘level’ playing field. They seem to account for everything except that guys before ’47 didn’t face non-white opponents. By these numbers, the all-time home run leaderboard looks like this (followed by season high and actual rank):
1. Babe Ruth, 1070 (75) (3rd)
2. Hank Aaron, 971 (59) (1st)
3. Barry Bonds, 931 (73 in 2001) (2nd)
4. Willie Mays, 856 (64) (4th)
5. Mel Ott, 861 (62) (19th)
6. Lou Gehrig, 792 (76) (tied for 23th)
7. Jimmie Foxx, 765 (70) (14th)
8. Reggie Jackson, 757 (57) (11th)
9. Mike Schmidt, 755 (65) (12th)
10. Ted Williams, 752 (65) (doesn’t account for the years lost to military service) (tied for 15th)
11. Frank Robinson, 738 (56) (tied for 6th)
12. Stan Musial, 730 (63) (tied for 28th)
13. Ken Griffey, Jr., 718 (66) (tied for 6th)
14. Willie McCovey, 696 (58) (tied for 15th)
15. Mickey Mantle, 685 (63; hit 61 in 1961, Maris hit 67) (13th)
16. Mark McGwire, 685 (72) (8th)
17. Rafael Palmeiro, 682 (51) (10th)
18. Sammy Sosa, 681 (65) (5th)
19. Harmon Killebrew, 675 (56) (9th)
20. Eddie Murray, 663 (48) (20th)
21. “Wahoo” Sam Crawford, 662 (57) (tied for 712th)
22. Rogers Hornsby, 661 (64) (113th)
23. Willie Stargell, 655 (63) (tied for 28th)
24. Dave Winfield, 654 (50) (30th)
25. Ernie Banks, 653 (60) (tied for 17th)
26. Eddie Matthews, 646 (58) (tied for 17th)
27. Andre Dawson, 641 (56) (35th)
28. Johnny Mize, 626 (69) (66th)
29. Frank Thomas, 625 (61) (21st)
30. Joe DiMaggio, 611 (69) (64th)
31. Fred McGriff, 607 (54) (tied for 23rd)
32. Honus Wagner, 601 (53) (tied for 679th)
(BP doesn’t have this as a sortable or searchable stat, so I had to manually get the data of the DT cards; so if I missed anyone, sorry. But I think this is everyone with over 600 translated home runs.) Note that strike years (like 1994) are treated like full seasons, and a full season of 2007 numbers (projected out, I guess?) are part of it too. It also seems like ‘dead ball era’ hitters (Wagner, Hornsby, and Crawford), as well as guys who played in extreme pitchers parks (like Ott and DiMaggio) benefit greatly from the translations. Guys who played in extreme hitters parks seem to be penalized a bit (Ernie Banks, for example).
And as best as I can tell, Lou Gehrig is the single-season home run king, having bested Ruth in 1927, 76 to 75.
Boy, that was profound. I’d forgotten what better baseball franchises are out there like in Cincinnati and Kansas City or Florida or is it Houston and Seattle with all their championships too?
You think we don’t know (and haven’t PREDICTED) our current state?
Thanks though, because I needed another fan from Yahoo’s chat room to come over and remind me that Bonds is the worst human on the face of the planet and hates his family and cheats on his wife and hates the fans and pisses on baseball’s history and kicks homless people for fun and sucks and wasn’t all that good anyway and disgraces the game and cheats and continues to cheat and was always cheater and his head grew and his body is bigger at 40+ than it was at 20+ and should just quit and…get a fucking life. Maybe, just maybe you could 1) enter and debate the issue or at least read what people have to say or 2) direct your vitriol at something more important than baseball, like say, the current state of our country.
All the studies about PEDs in sports, all the attempts to define and quantify PEDs, all the intelligent people researching the effects, all the moralizing, all the exculpatory evidence, all the players (largely marginal) who’ve failed tests lately (and for what and why), all the passes given to MLB and the Union and the mainstream sports press (which I’d bet you don’t trust yourself…except about this)…and Barry Bonds gets you THIS upset? Too bad.
Too bad because he really is and has been “that” good and he is going to break the home run record. I understand that you don’t like him (actually it’s probably more than that, isn’t it?), but don’t you, just for a second, think that he’s slightly more complicated than the narrative that’s portraying him? Then again, you probably don’t want to get into that, do you? No, you just want to show up and throw a comment from your computer and laugh and leave. Too bad.
This article, and the following comment thread, is a great explanation for why the Giants have the worst organization in Major League Baseball (when you account for the current record and the barren farm system).
If you guys had higher standards and didn’t slavishly drool over every guy who wears your team’s uniform, the management wouldn’t have the balls to trot out the likes of Feliz to play everyday.
Nor would they have built a team around an ornery steroid freak (who never tested positive because no drug testing existed for most of his career) who will retire, like all SF Giants, without a single championship to his name.
Idiot…
I think the main reason why our players stall in AA and AAA is because we have shitty coaches and instructors for those 2 levels. The lower level Rookie ball and A-Ball teams are always very good. I would have to blame the coaching for not helping these young players adjust as they get promoted to a higher level. Like there is no excuse for the way Todd Linden sat and rotted in AAA for like 3 years, mostly because he never fixed the gaping hole in his swing and was so easily fooled by breaking pitches. Who is teaching these kids to hit? Travis Ishikawa who actually looked pretty good last year the few times he was called up, hit like .230 in AA, and did even worse this year and was recently DEMOTED to A ball San Jose. And he’s supposedly one of our best prospects.
God I hate KNBR. Michael Urban is a moron. He’s all over Zito’s jockstrap. He had the gull to claim that Zito is the best 2nd half pitcher in baseball since 2005 LOL. Which anyone who watches baseball knows that its really Johan Santana. What’s even more hilarious is that Zito’s #s are quite pedestrian in the 2nd half. And they were flat out AWFUL last year. Which should have been a precursor and warning sign to what the Giants were getting when they signed him in the off-season.
Zito in 2006: 8-4 4.55 ERA 95 IP, 106 H, 15 HR, 42 BB and 59 K, .286 BAA. Fucking horrible numbers.
Yeah, the KNBR weekend guys are not geniuses, but then neither are most of the newspaper folks. The local media pushes the myth that McGowan/Baer “forced” Sabean to sign mediocre old guys, and that Sabean by himself would have put an exciting, talented, young team on the field. (How, I wonder? By playing Cody Ransom at SS instead of signing Vizquel? By making regular OFs of Linden and Ellison instead of signing Winn and Alou?? By sticking Niekro at 1B full-time instead of signing Klesko? By making a regular of Tony Torcato?
The fact is, the young Giants position players of the past few years can’t play, and it’s a stupid strategy to “go younger” if the young guys will never be any good (the jury is still out on Shierholtz). There is nothing that Sabean or McGowan can “decide” right now that will fix this. Maybe signing A-Rod, or Cabrera, or making a clever trade or two will keep us from losing 100 games in 2008-2009, but really, these types of moves are just holding actions until we grow a few of our own. Putting a new name plate on the GM’s desk would be a good start…
Reuter was BETTER than Zito at this point…and I’m not speaking well of Reuter with that statement
Does anyone else suspect that Zito may just completely implode in the second half? I recall that this is what happened to Mike Hampton, Chan ho Park, and Denny Neagle — they signed mega-contracts, had disappointing first halves, and when the fans turned on ‘em they just went completely in the toilet after the ASB.
I hope this doesn’t happen here. I mean, I know Zito’s not a great pitcher but it’s not his fault that the Giants’ “brain trust” — and I use the term VERY loosely — overvalued him by at least $50 million. I’d like to think that when the fans boo Zito they azre really booing Sabean, but that’s probably wishful thinking…
Accounting for eras, which we all do anyway, I think that Ruth is the best player in baseball history. Why? I think that it’s probably pretty close, but for me, he was a fantastic pitcher first and then a fantastic hitter.
I think that Bonds is right there at two or three or four with, as noted, Mays and Williams. (I’d probably put him number two actually.) Also, I think that Williams’ missed time is even MORE important than what you gave him above. If I’m not mistaken, Williams took two different breaks from baseball at two different times in his career (WW II AND Korea) to serve as a fighter pilot. That’s fucking impressive and I gotta tip my cap to that!
couple things john
had mays not played at the stick, he would be the hr leader right now
also bonds did fail one drug test…..for greenies
we werent supposed to know about it, but some criminal in the commish’s office decided to leak the info
i dont know if bonds will go down in history as the greatest player ever, but he has been the most feared
Wow… very well said, John. I especially agree with the sentiment that Ted Williams is highly underrated, which seem absurd but is really very true, especially when you consider he lost years during his PRIME to go to war.
Also, great line here: “But not to Lupica and Verducci and the rest of these custodians of rightness.” LOL…
The thing that bugs me most is, after a few years of PED testing Bonds is putting up a monster OPS and no one is giving him any credit for it.
John, you have a great blog, and I think you would agree made much better by the many readers who take the time to post their insights/impressions/ opinions.
As for people/fans being sheep it reminds me of a media comment I once heard 25 years ago or so about fans. NYY fans would not care if Charlie Manson played 3rd base for the Yankee’s if he hit .340 and drove in 130 run Terrible visual,but an element of truth in that hyperbole. I can not remember who said it,but it always struck me as very much a part of the fan/team dynamic.{Aurillio Rodriguez was playing 3rd base at the time for NYY}
This would go against how they wish to cover Bonds,but why does the media not ask what personality characteristics Bonds has that Griffey, Pujlos, Delgado ,Billy Wagner etc like and respect?Portraying Bonds as a baseball lepper ,but so many good guys du jour do not see him as he has been portrayed????
The article though I would find most interesting would be,could a sports reporters personal and professionial life stand up to the same scrutinity,and judgements,to how they have almost have collectively decided apply to Bonds?
I believe if the media was held to a personal higher standard for their words and actions,the public would benefit with more civility, less non compromising positions ,and truth when they read watch or hear news.
It’s not important to wonder if a reporter’s life could withstand the kind of scrutiny Bonds (or any sports figure) endure. No one could. No one lives such a selfless, caring, thoughtful life that they would come off looking good if they were in the public eye for decades, not to mention being investigated for going on 4 years.
Bonds is an asshole, sure, I get it. And I know he’s played in an offensive era. He’s also played in some of the worst hitter’s parks in the league. In 2001, when he hit 73 home runs, he hit 37 at PacBell, more than every other lefthanded hitter in the league combined. I’m gonna write that again, it’s so absurd. Bonds hit more home runs at PacBell than every other lefthanded hitter in the NL COMBINED.
But he gets no slack, no protection whatsoever, from the media. You’ve got to be on the outside, away from him and his way of being, to see him clearly. And when you see him clearly, you see the best baseball player of all time. I don’t care how he acts, I just don’t. He doesn’t stab people, steal, drive drunk, molest kids. He works his ass off, and he plays baseball. Would it be nice if he were a role model? I guess. He’s not. Too bad.
This piece should go out on the wire and appear on every sports page in America.
Bravo.
Aaron and Mays played in the best pitcher’s time since the Dead Ball Era; Barry has played in an offensive era not seen since the 1920s and 30s. That’s a factor. So is the fact that Aaron played in a lousy power park until the move to Atlanta – and the fact that Barry plays in one of the worst hitters parks in baseball. Imagine Barry In Philadelphia, for example. He has never played in a good hitter’s park (Three Rivers was relatively neutral and Candlestick was lousy because of all the foul territory).
Barry can be charming and witty. He can also be a miserable SOB. He doesn’t play nice with the media, which consists largely of white males, many of them older, who have a certain vision of the way baseball should be — and he doesn’t fit.
I root for Barry because he’s a Giant. No other reason. Were he still a Pirate, I don’t think I’d be so kindly disposed toward him. But until someone proves he’s taken something (and what effects it might have), we have no choice but to recognize him as the greatest player of his era and in the discussion for the greatest player of all time.
john,
i HAVE read the game of shadows. more than once. they give exactly ZERO evidence that bonds used drugs. it is ALL someone said they saw/someone said someone said
and the media was after bonds from the second he came up in pittsburgh. because he never had THE most important thing a ballplayer should have – the “humble”
also i have looked at pics of willie mays, ted williams and hank aaron at 22 and 40 and they ALL were bigger for some reason at 40. only ballplayer i can think of didn’t get bigger from 22 to 40 is ozzie smith. well actually his head and jaw DO look bigger. and he DID hit 29 home runs in 20 years…
John, I read your blog every day just because you so intelligently and passionately express the truth, the reality of Barry Bonds and his rush to the gallows, and, at the same time, the shameful, intellectually dishonest, self serving propaganda of Verducci, Lupica, and soooo many more small minded bigots in the media.
At the same time, I am constantly amazed at your loss of perspective, your becoming overwhelmed by your own negative emotion when it comes to actually analyzing the Giants, their performance, their future, and, particularly, their GM, and their ownership.
But, thank you so much for this, an important contribution, not only to sports, but to history, to justice, to fairness, intellectual honesty, and ethics vs the pursuit of personal power in the media.
Good stuff all around.
Good work.
Your observation that Aaron wasn’t near the best home run hitter even in his own time is great. Look at homeruns/at bat to see hit home runs the best. Bonds has led 8 times. Aaron led in 3 consecutive severe launching pad years (1971-73). See Dave Johnson’s 1973 to see how much the park helped.
About Willie Mays, he had lingering hamstring injuries after 35, and some knee injuries. Don’t think it would have helped him too much to play in the launching pad.
It might have helped his healing to in this era.
About Willie Mays, he had lingering hamstring injuries after 35, and some knee injuries. Don’t think it would have helped him too much to play in the launching pad.
It might have helped his healing to in this era.
CJ and John, a missing element of the analyses I see of Aaron’s move to the launching pad vs. Mays’ last years at Candlestick is the effect of the Candlestone artificial turf on an aging outfielder’s legs. IIRC, the Stick got the turf in 1966 or so, Mays’ last great HR year.
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Good, good stuff John. Thanks for that and laying out your (my) arguments. This will be a good place to encourage others to check out to “thumbnail sketch” where I’m coming from.