Great to see the new backtalk threaded feature working so well. I thought that I would front-page Mr. Hobbes, since he’s so adamantly disagreeing with me. Sorry if this isn’t nice. At least he made the big time: ;-D
…. The Giants had a $50-65 million dollar payroll until they moved into the new ballpark in 2000. Since then its been anywhere from 75-90 mill. Compare that to the Indians who had one of the biggest payrolls from 97-2002 as they were in 1st place nearly every year. It wasn’t until 2003 that they started to rebuild that their budget shrunk as they focused on player development. And now since they are good again their budget is only going to grow as they sign guys to extensions or sign more free agents to improve their roster to stay in contention.
Oakland and Minnesota have been low to mid-level budget teams and have been rarities among ML teams in terms of being able to stay in contention by developing young players and not being able to keep their star players. Atlanta was a big market team, much larger budget than the Giants until the past few years, when they’ve had to cut payroll (something that coincided with them missing the playoffs for the first time in 14 years). Yet they still have an 89 million dollar payroll this year. Less then they had before when it was over 100 million, but still; and they haven’t been a poor team at all.
Also, if you want to bring up all the young players developed by the A’s, Twins etc., all of those teams sucked for a few years or more, and that’s how they were able to draft well, because they were picking in the top 10 repeatedly. Eric Chavez, Barry Zito and Mark Mulder were all top 10 picks made by the A’s. Nick Swisher was 16th overall. Until recently the Giants hadn’t been selecting until the late 1st round, that’s if they even had a 1st round pick. The Twins did the same thing, Joe Mauer was the 1st pick of the draft. Atlanta took Chipper Jones 1st overall in 1990.
Will Clark, Matt Williams and Robby Thompson are considered the last good position players developed by the Giants. All 3 were top picks. Look at the franchise players in the majors. I guarantee the majority of them were high 1st round picks with the exception of guys signed out of Latin America or Albert Pujols who was a JC player taken in the 13th round.
A-Rod was 1st overall, Griffey was too, Jeter was 6th overall, Prince Fielder 7th overall, Adrian Gonzalez 1st overall, Chase Utley 15th overall, Manny Ramirez 13th overall, Barry Bonds 6th overall, Gary Sheffield 6th overall, and it goes on and on.
First of all, the Indians pioneered the strategy of signing their good young players to extensions in order to lock up their best players through their most productive — and young — years. They let Ramirez, Lofton and the rest of that team leave only after those deals had expired, or were about to. They never had a top ten payroll, to the best of my recollection, until after that.
As for the rest of your argument, well, come on. How can you possibly compare the draft strategies of the A’s or the Twins with the Giants. Both teams have been on the cutting edge of player evaluation for the same decade that the Giants have been sucking the pipe. Swisher was the only legitimate top pick you just referenced, the rest of the A’s roster is made up of guys nobody but Beane wanted, and you — and every single baseball fan in the world — know that. In particular, Zito and Mulder were soft-throwing pitchers that Beane had to argue with his own guys to draft.
The Twins have an organization-wide system of developing players. They teach a particular approach to hitting, to defense, to team-play. They draft players they know they can sign, (because they pay less than other teams), and they take players who have specific skill sets they are seeking, much like the A’s. They have built a team that has now been in contention for some six years, based on home-grown talent; which is the least-expensive way to do it.
Sabean’s strategy is what, exactly? Draft pitchers and trade them for major-league players. That’s it. We don’t teach patience at the plate, we don’t stress striking guys out, we don’t coach a particular defensive mind-set, we don’t go for power hitters, or fast guys, or guys who know how to get on-base…. WE DON’T DO ANYTHING AT ALL. We’re a fucking beer-league softball team, a bunch of guys who cycle through, a different cast of characters year after year, no consistency, no approach, nothing but a bunch of guys. We’re not a team at all, not in any real sense of the word.
You wanna defend Sabean, fine. You can say he’s been at the helm for the decade of contention, and he has. I am not alone in saying he’s been riding Bonds’ coattails; that if the team had been without Barry, Sabean would’ve been fired ten years ago. You wanna compare the Giants talent evaluation and draft strategy with Billy Beane’s? You’re out of your fucking mind. And to bring up Williams, Thompson and Clark in Sabean’s defense is borderline lunacy. Sabean was a scout for the Yankees when those guys were drafted.
As for the rest of you backtalkers….
Jim Adams brought up a good point, Sabean did have a run of some pretty good major league acquisitions. David Bell, Burks, Kent, Grissom, Lofton, Nen …. Fine, I stand corrected.
But don’t you think that part of the reason Sabean is no longer landing talented players is the lack of talent he has to offer. Our farm system has been a joke for going on a decade. And don’t even start talking about all the pitchers we’ve drafted. You wanna tell me the Giants draft and develop pitchers? Who? Joe Nathan? Jeremy Accardo? THEY DON’T PLAY HERE ANYMORE!! And how do we know that the Giants weren’t holding them back when they were? How do we know Righetti’s not doing it to Cain and Lincecum right now?
How about Jerome Williams, Shawn Estes, Jesse Foppert, and the endless list of bullshit pitchers Sabean has used to acquire his pile of Shawon Dunston-level talent. The two guys we’re watching now represent the best arms coming out of our system in ten or fifteen years, and they were top level picks. Meanwhile, I’d hazard a guess that the rest of baseball is no longer blind to the bullshit Sabean’s been dangling as trade bait. All they have to do is look at the facts. The Giants have drafted and developed NO hitting talent since Williams, Clark and Thompson.
Oh, Sabean thinks first round picks are expensive?
DON’T GIVE $24 MILLION DOLLARS TO JT SNOW.
Don’t give $18 million to Dave Roberts, $12 million to Marvin Benard, $8 million to Shawon Dunston, $14 million to NEIFI-FUCKING-PEREZ!!!!! Don’t keep throwing money on the ground signing 40-year old washouts. The $14 million we’re giving to Molina could have paid for three or four first round picks. Did we need him? NO! Just like we didn’t need Matheny, like we didn’t need Double Play AJ.
Sabean gave Dave Roberts an $18 million dollar contract to be our leadoff hitter and center fielder for the next three years. A 36-year old baseball player, who had never in his life played a full season, a player who had never scored 100 runs in a season, (or 90 runs, for that matter), or had 100 walks, or hit .300, or won an award, of any kind, for any thing at all. A player whose performance was virtually assured of being as bad as it is now (.207/.287/.333); who could be replaced by almost any Triple AAA player, from any team. In fact, we did! Even our horrible minor league system had a player, Fred Lewis, who came in and immediately out-performed Roberts.
How could our GM not know that we had a player of equal value, who was 25-years old instead of 35, in our system? How could he throw $18 million dollars on the ground like that, instead of just letting the young guy take a shot? HOW CAN THAT BE? Because Sabean is asking the wrong questions. He is using the wrong value assesments to make his decisions, that’s how.
Again, I ask you, right now, name one major league player of any significance that the Giants drafted and developed? People have complained for years that the Yankees just go out and buy other teams’ stars. That’s a bunch of horsehit. Cano, Wang, and Cabrera are all recent home grown talent, none of whom was even close to first rounder. Go back ten years, and, off the top of my head, you’re looking at Pettitte, Jeter, Posada, Bernie Williams. Am I missing anyone? I guarantee you I am.
I can go to any team, open up their roster page, and find a better major league player — that came up through their system — than the best the Giants have to offer, Pedro Feliz, (who certainly takes a lot of heat here at OBM, and perhaps somewhat undeservedly. He seems like a nice enough guy, works hard, plays good defense; and if he was on a real team, would more than likely be a perfectly acceptable third basemen).
In the meantime, if you want to make the argument that the Giants have a fine strategy for putting together a major league team, riddle me this, Batman:
WHERE ARE THE GIANTS HOME GROWN PLAYERS?!? If you can’t answer that, you have no business telling me and my readers that we are the ones who don’t know what we’re talking about. List me the five or ten players that came up with the Giants and are now making their mark in the bigs, and we’ll talk. Fuck it, name one.
UPDATE: Has Bruce Jenkins suddenly realized the truth?
…. In case you missed it, the Giants woke up this morning with one less win than the Baltimore Orioles. Forget being at least games behind three legitimate contenders in the NL West; they are 7-½ games behind Colorado. If that isn’t a complete embarrassment, then Magowan got over his discomfort much too soon.
The team’s offense isn’t “slumping,” it’s doing exactly what was forecast in spring training. The lack of clutch hitting isn’t alarming, it’s what the Giants should be getting from the team they assembled. The bullpen isn’t in transition, it’s fully second-rate. Injuries have played a part, but with this geriatric roster, things could get infinitely worse in the second half, players trading extensive visits to the disabled list.
Now we discover that the starting rotation isn’t the team’s salvation, either. You still expect a solid outing from any of them, but the honest truth is that Matt Cain is the only one offering that rock-solid hope for the future. The Giants made a big deal about a blown umpire’s call in the series finale at Milwaukee, but for crying out loud, they were down 6-0 before they could blink. That’s the real story, and it was hardly an aberration.
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Giants have specialized in pitchers, usually for trade bait. They have two prime prospects on their roster, either of whom could become stars, but one who has degraded quickly since becoming exposed to the Giants pitching “system” whatever that is. Let Lincecums father be his coach, he is obviously better than whomever is changing Lincecums routines.
Hitters are what the focus is on:
Guillermo Rodriguez – Probably would not make any other MLB roster.
Pedro Feliz – Could play on most rosters as a fill in, or weak link in an otherwise fine roster.
Luis R. Figueroa – Too early to tell, but seems like a Mendoza line prospect.
Kevin Frandsen – Probably would not make any other MLB roster.
Nate Schierholtz – Hey, maybe an average Major league outfielder, but highly unlikely to be a star.
This is the Giants future?
Not to mention Neikro, Lindgren, Minor, who are already out of baseball. The best prospect I can even remember in the last ten years was Torvit, who they never gave a chance to, and paid Metheny millions to do no better, probably worse.
I think that is the MAIN criticism of Sabean. Not necessarily that he has no farm system of hitters and seems to have had no interest in developing it, but that the few young, below-average potential prospects he has, the Giants don’t play, he would prefer to sign “proven” below-average player to 3 year megabuck deals, who do little or no better than a prospect, who, given a couple years of adjusting, could easily be as good as any he has signed.
The case has been made many times, Why give $18 million to Roberts, when you can play Lewis? (or another prospect). Visquel has been fun to watch, but for the money? It goes on and on. I can see keeping Feliz, and even Durham, but the constant signing of mediocre aging relics is sad. Even Molino, who has been a huge over-achiever, I would rather see a young Torrealba, (who could have been brought back easily), or another year of Alfonzo, etc. Save that money on a risk for another stud. 2 stars on a roster of mediocrity can work, but never one.
Bottom line: mediocre youth can be exciting. Mediocre end-of-career players are the shits.
I think certain important facts are omitted from the conversation. It is kind of creating a straw man to say ‘no impact position players have been drafted/developed.’
In fact, the Giants currently feature these ‘home grown players:’
Matt Cain
Kevin Correia
Brad Hennessey
Tim Lincecum
Noah Lowry
Jonathan Sanchez
Jack Taschner
Guillermo Rodriguez
Pedro Feliz
Luis R. Figueroa
Kevin Frandsen
Nate Schierholtz
That is 12 players out of a roster of 25. Is that good? average? or bad? Tell me how that compares with the other 30+ rosters. It includes 3 SPs, 1 closer, and 3 very important RPs; it also includes one starting position player , one platoon player, and one player getting his shot/some semi-regular playing time.
These players are all young and inexpensive. They are the foundation going forward. Is this an above average, average, below average foundation/nucleus? Again, I think to just look at the Giants roster and criticize, without putting it in context of other MLB teams is, analytically, a waste of time.
I also think it is incorrect to talk about the Giants as if they have exhibited one, unchanging strategy. Is it not true that recent drafts have been ore productive? Is it not true that recent Giants rosters have begun to include larger and larger numbers of home developed talent?
Frank,
That’s a pile of mediocrity, right there. I’m asking about impact players, star-caliber players. I think it’s reasonable to ask where are the Giants home grown stars. I’d say there’s probably 30 star level players that are younger than 30 years old. None of them are from the Giants. I’d say there are probably another 100 or so players just below that level, Robinson Cano type players, established, quality major leaguers. The only player from the Giants farm system that qualifies at that level would be Joe Nathan, who plays for somebody else.
Lowry, Cain, and Lincecium have about three seasons to prove that they are quality major league players. Until they do, they cannot be trumpeted as successes for the team’s development system. For crying out loud, Shawn Estes had a better start to his career than any of them have, and he’s just about out of the game.
You’re trying to tell me the Giants are doing a good job developing players? They’re not. You’re wrong.
If I get a loop and look for a long time at a dimaond I can find lots of flaws. So what?? What I’ve found is only important in relation to other diamonds.
The same is true of a roster. I am not saying the Giants have permormed well, or, in fact, at any level when it comes to drafting and developing players. I am saying that to focus on what they admittedly do not focus on and to ignore what they profess to focus on is to determine the outcome of the analysis, n’est pas?
Personally, I am sorry, it has been a long and difficult season. I am not much in the mood of blindly signing on to someone else’s agenda. I am very interested in assessing the strengths and weaknesses of the Sabean regime. John, you have a lot of value to add, and I read your blog regularly as a consequence. For all of your clear and analytic logic when it comes the the B Bonds hanging, you can be very judgmental and illogical when it comes to Sabean. I am in no position to agree or disagree with you. (I am inviting some clear analysis, intellectually honest research and analysis, as opposed to waiting until the moment is right (the midst of an 8 game losing streak for example) and then parading out all of the arguments that have been in the closet, waiting for this moment.
So, really, you trash the SPs, by manipulating the definitions for the argument. But, really, what I have reported (12 roster players, 4 starters, 1 closer, etc) is legit reporting. And I don’t offer any argument as to its meaning. I simply ask, is it good? bad? average?
To repeat, I do think to confine the discussionto position players rather guarantees the outcome of the discussion. So, I ask, how do the Giants compare, in terms of roster and home grown players, with other MLB teams?
Well, the problem is that their group of homegrown players has them in dead last. So, uh… yeah, that’s not good.
This is just a horseshit argument. It is argument that typically comes from “trolls,’ argument designed not to further the discussion but just to antagonize. It is completely groundless, is a total twisting and misrepresentation of the facts. Not that the team is in last place, it clearly is. But only the intellectually lazy leap from that isolated fact to use it to support whatever conclusion appeals to them on any given day. Spare me your superior attitude, your patronizing approach and your wholly inferior “intellectual” (sorry, it really is the wrong use of the word) assessment.
Wow, you basically just responded with the same attitude you just accused me of. My response was brief because, quite frankly, there was a pretty significant hole in your argument and with everyone else chiming in I felt a full explanation would be a waste of my time. Much as I love it, it’s just fucking baseball… calm down.
I’m surprised by all the McGowan hate. What evidence is there that he is “cheap,” except that a few sweet-licking sport writers are trying to deflect blame away from Sabean? If you look at the facts, rather than sports writers’ insinuations, you see that:
1. McGowan brought Bonds to SF by signing him to what was then the richest free-agent contract ever.
2. McGowan signed Zito to the richest-ever contract for a pitcher. And, he authorized the Giants to make generous free-agent offers to Carlos Lee and Soriano.
3. The Giants’ payroll had been above the ML average every year of the McGowan era.
Some of these moves may be smart and some may be dumb, but they don’t indicate that Giants’ ownership is cheap. Also, what is the basis for claiming that Giants’ ownership is too cheap to build a good farm system? Do the Giants pay their scouts or their minor league instructors less than other organizations do? Do they offer less money to the players they draft?
These are not just rhetorical questions. Perhaps there is evidence that the Giants are skimping on player development, and I’m unaware of it. If so, please enlighten me.
Your points:
1, 2, 3. Agreed. No argument here.
My point
Its not that he is cheap. My point is that he did not commit the dollars necessary to put the Giants over the top. He has spent just short of what was needed. Like the guy who walks away from a house that costs 1 Million because he only budgets for $990,000. And because he would rather spend that money on brass-plated espresso machines, guys like Vlad Guerrero end up playing in Anaheim and the greatest player of the modern era ends up surrounded by dolts.
That he panicked and reversed course this year has compounded the problem. His willingness to throw money at Juan Pierre, Gary Matthews, Alfonso Soriano, indicated that he finally acknowledged that the organization he has stewardship over was really in trouble. But 126 million dollars for Shawn Estes twin? $5million for Pedro Feliz? Millions in multi-year contracts for stiffs like Matt Morris, Dave Roberts, Randy Winn, Ray Durham? Are you kidding me? These are not Sabaen decisions, Jim. These come from Magowan and Baer – The Front Office. These are players with name recognition for the fringe fan. Dave Roberts: “Once stole a key base in a playoff game.” Randy Winn: “Was college teammate of Steve Nash.” Omar Visquel “Won many gold gloves years ago” Bengie Molina: “Hit a key homerun in the playoffs for the Angels several years ago” and so on. Its a joke. Old Baseball cards. He spends 20 million on several pieces of over the hill guys and never-was’ and skimps on 25 million for a true all-star.
As for developing players from within?
The Giants made it clear over and over that they did not want to spend bonus money on high draft picks, but rather spend it on established players. Look at the rosters above respectively for the As and the Giants. Sabaen has been mouthing this almost monthly on KNBR on Thursday’s for years. This is not a secret. If you don’t believe me. Go to a Ports game, take a tour of the facilities. Oaklands Cal League entry. Then go to San Jose. San Leandro Park and Rec has better facilities. The Giants don’t own the stadium or the franchise, granted, but nothing prevents them from moving to better digs, or underwriting improvements. San Jose Municipal Stadium is old and cramped.
I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I am regurgitating sports writers opinions. I was on Magowan’s ass around here when most folks were still bowing and scraping at his feet for “saving” the franchise. (Which he did not, as you know) Just go back a couple of years into the archives. I get the scores. I look at stats. I watch the games. Then I watch replays of certain hitters, pitchers, ABs or defensive plays. I listen to Kruk, Kuip, Sabaen on the radio. I talk to guys still active in the game. I’ve not seen or heard one negative thing about Magowan from any of those sources. I’ve been on Magowan’s ass since 2003, because what has happened is what I thought was going to happen at that time. Nothing more, nothing less.
+mia, I did not mean to imply that you get your opinions from sports writers — I’m sorry if it came across this way. As to signing players like Vizquel, Molina, Alou, etc., I don’t see what choice the Giants had. At the time these signings were made the Giants had no one in-house who was a major-league caliber shortstop, or right fielder, or catcher. Just another benefit of having an unproductive farm system…
No apology necessary Jim. You’re one of my favorite posters and always balance the (cough) hyperbole of people like myself with thoughtful and thought-provoking comments. You will get no argument from me on the above comments. Actually in view of the bind they were in, I think they did a pretty decent job. In all fairness, the signings of Lincecum, Cain, Vilalona, and 31 of 34 draft choices in the 2007 draft indicate that the message has been heard. That they are in fact taking a new direction. Better late than never. Much, much better. But it will be naught if they do not upgrade and modernize their farm clubs. I’m still of the belief that Sabaen’s hands have been tied by Magowan’s and Baer’s meddling and that if he had been left unfettered, the Giants would be in much better shape, especially the farm system. Coaching and teaching methods change all the time and if you’re not changing with the times, than you’re falling behind.
I would devote some of that money coming off the books next year and take a serious run at the Twins guys to take over my farm operation. To me that would be a hell of a lot more inspiring than signing another over the hill has-been with which to entice the local fringe fans through the AT&T turnstiles
I’m laughing at the quotes about Randy Winn et. al. as I noticed them as well yesterday, along with video proof. Baseball is such a great game, it’s too bad that ESPN and Fox feel that they have to dumb it down to reach fans. I mean, they could emphasize stories like Kevin Fransden ala what NBC does with the Olympics (silly and cheesy, but it works); instead it’s “let’s watch Molina hit one home run once in one important game.” Hell, Fransden’s just a story that I know about…I’m sure every player on every roster has something in his past that fans would be interested in knowing.
Hobbs:
Really nice job on laying out that information. Really. Knowing how many of those starters are homegrown by the parent club, would be helpful. I think that the draft is sometimes viewed as the end all and be all of projecting future stars. As if where organizations initially rank a kid requires a straight line correlation to where he is going to end up. We all know there is a high correlation between high draft choices and being a MLB starter; but the question begs why. How can you tell with absolute certainty if a 17 year old is going to be a future star? You can’t obviously. But the more of them you sign, the better the odds are that at least one of them will. To quote a sports euphemism: “Its a numbers game.” Even with bad drafts, the odds tell you that you’re going to come up with at least one Mike Piazza every once in awhile over the span of 14 years. Its why I cited the high number of Giant signings over the last several years and the absolute dearth of players making it out of the Giants farm system and onto the Giants big league roster and being anything other than a low tier starter or a potentially good pitcher. By sheer numbers alone, you would expect at least one or two impact players to be on the Giants roster that they themselves developed, but no. Nada. So it can’t just be the draft and the scouting. It has to be in the teaching or farm system itself, or at least a significant portion.
Some of it is cause and effect. Organizations that have big dollars in terms of signing bonuses committed to high round draft choices will hang with a marginal high rounder for years before finally letting go. i.e. Lance Niekro, Todd Linden. Yet they will give up early on low draft choices where the kid was signed for 4 or 5 figures as soon as he has even the most minor of setbacks, unless he is a truly dominating player that catches everybody by surprise like a Mike Piazza, or even Jermaine Dye. Truth of the matter, is the game is rigged to a certain extent. Billy Beane was the first to actually put together a comprehensive strategy to exploit this.
The Giants in addition to being hamstrung by Magowan and Baer’s meddling at the MLB roster level, have let a bunch of rummies turn chicken soup into chicken shit with the farm system. More importantly I believe, than their mediocre signings or draft choices or lack of high round draft choices, I think that too many kids in the Giants farm system are the victims of bad coaching, bad instructing, bad evaluations. The A’s and Twins on the other hand, are making great chicken soup not only with unique ingredients, but by carefully cooking and monitoring its progress, tweaking it here, a dash of pepper there, an additional stir here, fine tuning the burner there and so forth.
This continues right on up to the MLB level. It is no accident that Sacramento and Stockton are a simple commute drive away from Oakland. And that the facilities there are some of the best in minor league baseball. Banner Island Ballpark which opened in 2006 is probably the best Single Single A stadium in the country. In other words, the A’s are leaving no stone unturned in providing a TEACHING environment. Drive down 101 to the Giant’s Cal League Single A affiliate, San Jose Municipal and you will find facilities that are older than Candlestick. The dugouts are beyond cramped, the clubhouses smell like shit and half the high schools in Southern California have newer and better facilities–for players and fans both. Fresno’s AAA stadium is only a couple of years old and is a damn fine facility, but is half a days travel time away. For all intents and purposes it would be closer if it was in Long Beach or Burbank. Its not that the Giants facilities and locations are bad, its that the A’s are superior and are part of a larger overall scheme. The Giants are a continuum of the 50s and 60s, only with email and fax machines. The Giants spend more fucking money on espresso machines and garlic fryers than they do on their minor league facilities.
So yes, while it is a numbers game, its pretty important what you do with the talent after you have signed it. Look over the Giants rosters for the last several years and what do you see? Now do the same with the A’s and Twins. Its enough to make you throw up in disgust. Just keep those espresso machines, wine racks and cheese slicers coming Petey. You may not have a shit of a ballclub anymore, but at least you may make the cover of Gourmet Magazine.
I disagree with putting Lowry and Sanchez up for trade – at least one of them will work out in the long run, I’d say. The players we should have up on the block are Molina, Matt Morris (a contender in need of pitching might really give us something good for him right now), Durham, Feliz (for a team in need of a utility player), and Dave Roberts. We shouldn’t give away any young pitching in trade… not yet. And while building youth is important, in terms of adding a bat, the Giants best hope to revitalize this franchise is going after A-Rod in free agency. He could really flourish in a place like SF – I’m sure he appreciates the fans’ loyalty to Bonds, as opposd to Yankees fans who are just looking to turn on him at any moment.
Well, who besides a bunch of social retards in NYC would not want A-Rod? You have to ask yourself why the hell Rodriguez would want to be here. He hated playing in Texas because the Rangers sucked. The Giants would have to totally overpay him.
People don’t get it yet. The era of good feeling is over. It disappeared with Baker, rightly or wrongly. Star players don’t want to come here anymore. Soriano told the Giants to shove it. So did a mediocrity like Gary Matthews, Jr. and Carlos Lee. It took a 29 year 48 billion dollar contract offer to Shawn Estes Heavy for the Giants to land anything close to impact player status. Nobody worth a shit wants to play here anymore. Despite what media harps. Its not only about the money. Money is huge. But you can’t spend millions when somebody is beating your ass 2 out of 3 nights a week. Embarrassing you. Losing. Being mocked. Fuck it man. I don’t care how much you make. It sucks For a top class jock losing sucks 10 times more than winning rocks. Easily. Since Baker, this franchise has a reputation with players not seen since Dennis Erickson was coaching the 49ers. The Giants are one step away from being the MLB equivalent of the Oakland Raiders…A fucking laughingstock of has beens surrounding the best player of the modern era to ever play the game.
Magowan neither committed the dollars nor the ego suppression necessary to put the big club over the top and he did not commit those dollars to building a great teaching farm system either. He is however the frontrunner in the Cooking Channel contest for best MLB Espressos and Brie.
I’d also add after reading over your list it may a better way to look at things by years and players taken. I’d venture to say that EVERY team will show plenty of players that were “missed” or passed over;
the Giants will probably show this for just about EVERY year too. I agree that Sabean AND ownership is at fault for the current situation and I don’t think that I’ve ever said that Sabean is THE problem. Most baseball fans would be thrilled if they could play fantasy ball and go back and construct a team, any team, with players taken from, say, the fourth or fifth rounds and beyond.
Sorry, you do have every team, don’t you? I’m trying to figure out what “order” they’re in, but they are all there.
Thanks for all the research. Seriously, thanks for that, it clearly took some time. However, your example–it’s really just a partial example, because it’s not every team and it’s not any team’s entire roster, nor is it any team’s 40-man roster (i.e. futures)–of MLB teams and their picks tells me that what I told you is correct. There ARE “can’t miss” guys in certain drafts, but most drafts have plenty of talent that goes deep into the rounds. (By the way, these most of these ‘can’t miss” guys would’ve never have been available to the Giants in the past because our draft position would’ve never been so high to “get ‘em.”)
If you have the skill, the good fortune, even the luck to find it, it’s there and it’s there in the US and across the baseball world and money isn’t the be all or end all to signing this talent. The Giants have failed to find any of this talent that other teams, other very bad teams, have found and that’s the problem: the production/success of a semblance of a minor league system in the Giants organization is a joke.
And, what future gold did the Giants–again, kudos to Martin at obsessivegiantscompulsive.com–miss in the first round (that would’ve been available and WAS “can’t miss”) during the Michael Tucker year?
At least Angel Villalona went 2-6 in his first Arizona League game. Had a double and an RBI….*sigh*
Yeah I have no problem bashing Sabean, since he too has made plenty of mistakes, but it just seems really stupid for people to ONLY blame him like he is making every single decision the team ever makes while signing the checks. And I’m not saying we need to draft expensive guys, but just put more $ into scouting and development.
Not to mention all the great Latin players, another area where the Giants should be spending money for scouting….
Teams that can’t afford to have large payroll teams, focus their attention in that area. That is arguably why they are able to find gems. They spend more money on looking for that talent, because its the only way they can compete. Maybe if we had that kind of $ in the scouting department we could figure out that Brad Hennessey has no business pitching in the later innings. He should be a 5th starter or long relief guy, not a closer/set up guy. He doesn’t have the stuff for that.
But actually the majority of GOOD players in the ML’s were taken in the first couple of rounds in the draft. As you will note below. Good HS and JC players are found through good scouting. Yet most of the good players on this list were taken in the first few rounds of the draft.
Boston:
Varitek: 1st round, 14th overall 1994 draft.
Youkilis: 8th round, 2001 draft.
Pedoria: 2nd round 2004 draft.
Lowell: 20th round 1995 draft.
Lugo: 43rd round 1994 draft.(JC)
Manny: 1st round, 13th overall 1991 draft. (HS)
Crisp: 7th round 1999 draft. (JC)
Drew: 1st round, 5th overall 1998 draft.
Ortiz: FA signing from D.R.
NY Yankees:
Posada 24th round 1990 draft. (JC)
Cano: FA Signing from D.R.
A-Rod: 1st overall 1993 draft. (HS)
Jeter: 1st round, 6th overall 1992 draft. (HS)
Matsui: FA from Japan
Cabrera: FA signing from D.R.
Mientkiewicz: 5th round 1995 draft.
Giambi: 2nd round 1992 draft.
Damon: 1st round sandwich pick 35th overall, 1992 draft. (HS)
Toronto:
Overbay: 18th round 1999 draft.
Hill: 1st round, 13th overall 2003 draft.
Glaus: 1st round, 3rd overall 1997 draft.
Clayton: 1st round, 15th overall 1988 draft. (HS)
Lind: 3rd round 2004 draft.
Rios: 1st round, 19th overall 1999 draft. (HS)
Wells: 1st round, 5th overall 1997 draft. (HS)
Thomas: 1st round, 7th overall 1989 draft.
Stairs: FA signing from Canada
Tampa:
Pena: 1st round, 10th overall 1998 draft.
Upton: 1st round, 2nd overall 2002 draft. (HS)
Iwamura: FA from Japan
Harris: 5th round 2001 draft.
Crawford: 2nd round 1999 draft. (HS)
Young: 1st overall 2003 draft. (HS)
Baldelli: 1st round, 6th overall 2000 draft. (HS)
Dukes: 3rd round 2002 draft. (HS)
Wigginton: 17th round 1998 Draft
Orioles:
Hernandez: FA signing from Venezuela
Huff: 5th round 1998 draft.
Roberts: 1st round, 50th overall sandwich pick 1999 draft.
Mora: FA signing from Venezuela
Tejada: FA signing from D.R.
Payton: 1st round 29th pick 1994 draft
Patterson: 1st round, 3rd overall 1998 draft (HS)
Markakis: 1st round, 17th overall 2003 draft (JC)
Millar: UDFA with Marlins
Indians:
Martinez: FA signing from Venezuela
Garko: 3rd round 2003 draft
Barfield: 4th round 2001 draft (HS)
Blake: 7th round 1996 draft
Dellucci: 10th round 1995 draft
Peralta: FA signing from D.R
Sizemore: 3rd round 2000 draft (HS)
Nixon: 1st round, 7th overall 1993 draft (HS)
Hafner: 31st round 1996 draft (JC)
Michaels: 4th round 1998 draft
Shoppach: 2nd round 2001 draft
Tigers:
Pudge: FA signing from D.R.
Casey: 2nd round 1995 draft
Polanco: 19th round 1994 draft. (JC)
Inge: 2nd round 1998 draft.
Guillen: FA signing from Venezuela
Ordonez: FA signing from Venezuela
Monroe: 8th round 1995 draft (HS)
Granderson: 3rd round 2002 draft
Sheffield: 1st round, 6th overall 1986 draft (HS)
Thames: 30th round 1996 draft (JC)
Twins:
Redmond: UDFA by Marlins 1992
Morneau: 3rd round 1999 draft (HS)
Castillo: FA signing from D.R.
Punto: 21st round 1998 draft (JC)
Bartlett: 13th round 2001 draft
Kubel: 12th round 2000 draft (HS)
Hunter: 1st round, 20th overall 1993 draft (HS)
Cuddyer: 1st round, 9th overall 1997 draft (HS)
Cirillo: 11th round 1991 draft
Mauer: 1st overall 2001 draft (HS)
White Sox:
Pierzynski 3rd round 1994 draft (HS)
Konerko: 1st round, 13th overall 1994 draft (HS)
Iguchi: FA from Japan
Crede: 5th round 1996 draft (HS)
Uribe: FA signing from D.R.
Mackowiak: 53rd round 1996 draft (JC)
Erstad: 1st overall 1995 draft
Dye: 17th round 1993 draft (JC)
Thome: 13th round 1989 draft
Royals:
Buck: 7th round 1998 draft (HS)
Shealy: 11th round 2002 draft
Grudzielanek: 11th round 1991 draft (JC)
Gordon: 1st round, 2nd overall 2005 draft
Pena: FA signing from D.R.
Brown: 6th round 1994 draft (JC)
DeJesus: 4th round 2000 draft
Teahan: 1st round, 39th overall sandwich pick 2002 draft
Sweeney: 10th round 1991 draft (HS)
Angels:
Napoli: 17th round 2000 draft (HS)
Kotchman: 1st round, 13th overall 2001 draft (HS)
Kendrick: 10th round 2002 draft (JC)
Figgins: 4th round 1997 draft (HS)
Cabrera: FA signing from Colombia
Willits: 7th round 2003 draft
Matthews Jr. 13th round 1993 draft (HS)
Guerrero: FA Signing from D.R.
Hillenbrand: 10th round 1996 draft (HS)
Anderson: 4th round 1990 draft (HS)
A’s:
Kendall: 1st round, 23rd overall 1992 draft (HS)
Johnson: 7th round 2001 draft
Ellis: 9th round 1999 draft
Chavez: 1st round, 10th overall 1996 draft (HS)
Crosby: 1st round, 25th overall 2001 draft
Stewart: 1st round, 19th overall 1992 draft (HS)
Swisher: 1st round, 16h overall 2002 draft
Buck: 1st round, 36th overall sandwich pick 2005 draft
Cust: 1st round, 30th overall 1997 draft (HS)
Piazza: 62nd round 1988 draft (JC)
Kotsay: 1st round, 9th overall 1996 draft
Walker: 1st round, 8th overall 1994 draft
Ex A: Bradley: 2nd round 1996 draft (HS)
Mariners:
Johjima: FA from Japan
Sexson: 24th round 1993 draft (HS)
Lopez: FA signing from Venezuela
Beltre: FA signing from D.R.
Betancourt: FA signing from Cuba
Ibanez: 36th round 1992 draft (JC)
Ichiro: FA from Japan
Guillen: FA signing from D.R.
Vidro: 6th round 1992 draft (HS)
Broussard: 2nd round 1999 draft
Rangers:
Laird: 2nd round 1998 draft (HS)
Teixiera: 1st round, 5th overall 2001 draft
Kinsler: 17th round 2003 draft
Blalock: 3rd round 1999 draft (HS)
Young: 5th round 1997 draft
Catalanotto: 10th round 1992 draft (HS)
Lofton: 17th round 1988 draft
Sosa: FA signing from D.R.
Wilkerson: 1st round, 33rd overall sandwich pick 1998 draft
Mets:
Lo Duca: 25th round 1993 draft
Delgado: FA signing from D.R.
Easley: 30th round 1988 draft (HS)
Wright: 1st round, 38th overall sandwich pick 2001 draft
Reyes: FA Signing from D.R.
Alou: 1st round, 2nd overall 1986 draft (JC)
Beltran: 2nd round 1995 draft (HS)
Green: 1st round, 16th overall 1991 draft (HS)
Braves:
McCann: 2nd round 2002 draft
Thorman: 1st round, 30th overall 2000 draft
Johnson: 1st round, 38th overall sandwich pick 2000 draft
Jones: 1st overall 1990 draft
Renteria: FA signing from Colombia
Jones: FA signing from Curacao
Francoeur: 1st round, 23rd overall 2002 draft
Saltalamacchia: 1st round, 36th overall sandwich pick 2003 draft
Phillies:
Howard: 5th round 2001 draft
Utley: 1st round, 15th overall 2000 draft
Rollins: 2nd round 1996 draft (HS)
Burrell: 1st overall 1998 draft
Rowand: 1st round, 35th overall sandwich pick 1998 draft
Victorino: 6th round 1999 draft (HS)
Bourn: 4th round 2003 draft
Marlins:
Olivo: FA Signing from D.R.
Boone: 3rd round 1994 draft
Uggla: 11th round 2001 draft
Cabrera: FA signing from Venezuela
Ramirez: FA signing from D.R.
Willingham: 17th round 2000 draft
Hermida: 1st round, 11th overall 2002 draft (HS)
Jacobs: 38th round 1999 draft (HS)
Nats:
Schneider: 5th round 1995 draft (HS)
Young: 1st round, 4th overall 1991 draft (HS)
Lopez: 1st round, 8th overall 1998 draft (HS)
Zimmerman: 1st round, 4th overall 2005 draft
Guzman: FA signing from D.R.
Church: 14th round 2000 draft
Logan: 3rd round 2000 draft
Kearns: 1st round, 7th overall 1998 draft (HS)
Belliard: 8th round 1994 draft (HS)
Brewers:
Estrada: 17th round 1997 draft (JC)
Fielder: 1st round, 7th overall 2002 draft (HS)
Weeks: 1st round, 2nd overall 2003 draft
Counsell: 11th round 1992 draft
Hardy: 2nd round 2001 draft (HS)
Jenkins: 1st round, 9th overall 1995 draft
Hall: 6th round 1998 draft (HS)
Hart: 11th round 2000 draft (HS)
Mench: 4th round 1999 draft
Braun: 1st round, 5th overall 2005 draft
Cardinals:
Molina: 4th round 2000 draft (HS)
Pujols: 13th round 1999 draft (JC)
Kennedy: 1st round, 20th overall 1997 draft
Rolen: 2nd round, 1993 draft (HS)
Eckstein: 19th round 1997 draft
Duncan: 1st round, 46th overall sandwich pick 1999 draft (HS)
Edmonds: 7th round 1988 draft (HS)
Encarnacion: FA signing from D.R.
Miles: 19th round 1995 draft (HS)
Wilson: 1st round, 9th overall 1992 draft (HS)
Spiezio: 6th round 1993 draft
Cubs:
Lee: 1st round, 14th overall 1993 draft (HS)
DeRosa: 7th round 1996 draft
Ramirez: FA signing from D.R.
Izturis: FA signing from Venezuela
Soriano: FA signing from Japan/D.R.
Pie: FA signing from D.R.
Jones: 2nd round 1996 draft
Theriot: 3rd round 2001 draft
Floyd: 1st round, 14th overall 1991 draft (HS)
Murton: 1st round 32nd overall sandwich pick 2003 draft
Ex-Cub: Barrett: 1st round, 28th overall 1995. (HS)
Pirtates:
Paulino: FA signing from D.R.
LaRoche: 29th round 2000 draft (JC)
Sanchez: 11th round 2000 draft
Bautista: 20th round 2000 draft (JC)
Wilson: 9th round 1998 draft (JC)
Bay: 22nd round 2000 draft
Duffy: 8th round 2001 draft
Nady: 2nd round 2000 draft
Astros:
Ausmus: 48th round 1987 draft (HS)
Berkman: 1st round, 16th overall 1997 draft
Biggio: 1st round, 22nd overall 1987 draft
Ensberg: 9th round 1998 draft
Everett: 1st round, 12th overall 1998 draft
Lee: FA signing from Panama
Pence: 2nd round 2004 draft
Scott: 9th round 2001 draft
Lamb: 7th round 1997 draft
Loretta: 7th round 1993 draft
Burke: 1st round, 10th overall 2001 draft
Reds:
Ross: 7th round 1998 draft
Hatteberg: 1st round, 43rd overall sandwich pick 1991 draft
Phillips: 2nd round 1999 draft (HS)
Encarnacion: 9th round 2000 draft (HS)
Gonzalez: FA signing from Venezuela
Dunn: 2nd round 1998 draft (HS)
Hamilton: 1st overall 1998 draft (HS)
Griffey Jr: 1st overall 1987 draft (HS)
Freel: 10th round 1995 draft (HS)
Conine: 58th round 1987 draft
Padres:
Bard: 3rd round, 1999 draft
Gonzalez: 1st overall 2000 draft (HS)
Giles: 53rd round 1996 draft (HS)
Greene: 1st round, 13th overall 2002 draft
Cameron: 18th round 1991 draft (HS)
Giles: 17th round 1989 draft (HS)
Cruz Jr.: 1st round, 3rd overall 1995
DBacks:
Snyder: 2nd round 2002 draft
Jackson: 1st round, 19th overall 2003 draft
Hudson: 43rd round 1997 draft (JC)
Reynolds: 16th round 2004 draft
Drew: 1st round, 15th overall 2005 draft
Byrnes: 8th round 1998 draft
Young: 16th round 2001 draft (HS)
Quentin: 1st round 29th overall 2003 draft
Tracy: 7th round 2001 draft
Clark: 1st round, 2nd overall 1990 draft (HS)
Montero: FA signing from Venezuela
Dodgers:
Martin: 17th round 2002 draft (JC)
Nomar: 1st round 12th overall 1994 draft
Kent: 20th round 1989 draft
Betemit: FA signing out of D.R.
Furcal: FA signing out of D.R.
Gonzalez: 4th round 1988 draft
Pierre: 13th round 1998 draft
Eithier: 2nd round 2003 draft
Kemp: 6th round 2003 draft (HS)
LaRoche: 39th round 2003 draft (JC)
Lieberthal: 1st round, 3rd overall 1990 (HS)
Loney: 1st round, 19th overall 2002 (HS)
Rockies:
Torrealba: FA signing from Venezuela
Helton: 1st round, 8th overall 1995 draft
Matsui: FA from Japan
Atkins: 5th round 2000 draft
Tulowitzki: 1st round, 7th overall 2005 draft
Holliday: 7th round 1998 draft (HS)
Taveras: FA signing from D.R.
Hawpe: 11th round 2000 draft
Finley: 13th round 1987 draft
Giants:
Molina: FA signing from P.R.
Klesko: 5th round 1989 draft (HS)
Durham: 5th round 1990 draft (HS)
Feliz: FA signing from D.R.
Vizquel: FA signing from Venezuela
Bonds: 1st round, 6th overall 1985 draft
Roberts: 28th round 1994 draft
Winn: 3rd round 1995 draft
Aurilia: 24th round 1992 draft
Lewis: 2nd round 2002 draft
Frandsen: 12th round 2004 draft
I’m sorry my friend, but we’re speaking different languages and I don’t really know where you’re going with this. It’s as if you find individual examples on the backs of baseball cards and then tailor these examples as universal truths. Baseball is hard, hard to scout, hard to play, hard to manage, hard to predict. And, while $ has value for a baseball franchise, it isn’t the end all or be all…and it doesn’t take that many looks at the Marlins, A’s, or Twins to see how resources can be used in a way to maximize those teams chances for a successful team on the field. Does it always work? No, it doesn’t, baseball is hard and hard to predict.
I’ll just say that some drafts have some players that merit the “can’t miss” tag. Most drafts have a collection of crapshoots, which is why most players in MLB weren’t drafted in the first or second rounds of the MLB draft. This is baseball and not the NBA and this is why a scouting department with a minimal level of success (not the Giants) is so critical. Not to mention, just a few ‘tweeners or a single regular player and some pitchers, saves a hell of a lot of money that otherwise has to be spent on a free agent. I fear that if you were GM you’d have signed Brien Taylor or Todd Van Poppel simply because they were expensive. (No, I don’t really think that, but this $ issue that you seem to base things on isn’t exactly set-in-stone to me.)
By the way–and I have to credit Martin at obsessivegiantscompulsive.com with this–find me that first round magic that we missed out on by signing Michael Tucker. (No, I didn’t approve of the signing of Tucker for draft picks either, but throwing that example about should encourage us to look further to see who we missed.)
And, I’d fully enjoy a discussion of the Mets (a team that I do not loathe) and Minaya’s ridiculous CHOICES. I also recall a vocal minority criticizing Minaya’s a few years ago for turning in the direction of Pedro, Delgado, LoDuca, Glavine, Wagner, etc.
Don’t worry, Bonds will be gone soon. I too blame ownership AND Sabean and Ryan Klesko for his ground out just now.
Yeah not skimping players for money, that’s why they forfeited their 1st round draft pick 2 years in a row so they could sign the likes of Michael Tucker and whatever other scrubs they signed because its too expensive in their mind to sign young kids to ML contracts or huge bonus money when there’s no guarantee they will ever play in the majors. Whereas at least if they sign those crappy veterans (again their reasoning I would imagine) they might get something out of them that could help contribute to their chances of contending and raking in more profit off of their fans and Barry’s pursuit of Hank Aaron. And this philosophy has been in place since the team moved to Pac Bell. That was 7 years ago. The win now philosophy.
Bonds was getting old yet he was still a highly productive player. And we were still actually developing a few guys who made the majors back then. Like Feliz, Nathan, Foppert, Ainsworth, Williams and a bunch of other guys that ended up getting hurt or traded. Like a Scott Linebrink.
And if developing or finding positional players is so easy, then how come most other teams struggle to find talent as well? How come a team like the Mets with all of their resources have the awful Jose Valentin playing so many games as a starter in their infield? Or the ageless wonder Julio Franco as a pinch hitter/sub. Or the wonderful Endy Chavez playing in their OF? What a winner he is. Don’t forget a washed up Shawn Green, or the washed up Moises Alou, who goes onto the DL every month.
Or Boston who throws millions at JD Drew (a guy who’s only played 1 near full season in his life) and a crappy SS in Julio Lugo. A guy hitting .201. But of course we hear no mass complaints from their fans, why? Because they’re winning. But those teams also have owners and payrolls big enough to make mistakes and to spend on both DEVELOPMENT and the ML roster.
Do the Giants? You’d probably like to think we do. But it’s obvious we don’t. If we did we might actually have something to show for it, just by sheer law of averages you would think 1 decent player would develop in a span of decades.
Maybe its just bad karma for having developed 4 HOF’ers in a span of about 5 years in Marichal, Perry, Cepeda and McCovey in the late 50′s early 60s. Along with all the other decent talent like Bobby Bonds, Jim Ray Hart, Matty and Felipe Alou, and others. Who knows though.
So yes, I put the blame on ownership for not investing enough in what makes a winning franchise in the first place. Which is the ability to cultivate and develop home grown talent.
What will make the Giants better is if the albatross that is Barry Bonds is gone from this team. He is nothing but a dead weight at this point, in fact he’s been one for the past couple of years. Until that happens this team and franchise will be hopeless.
Jeez, I disrespect him so that I can’t even spell his name correctly.
Bleh.
-The Giants are not skimping players for money
-Sabean and his scouting crew have, without question, failed to find and develop young players…and worse still, the few players that they have found, they have failed to see value in, let go, and then those same players developed into MLBers elsewhere. Yes, lots of organizations let guys go, but this one has let guys go AND failed to develop anything worth a shit on its own
-There is enough baseball talent across the USA, Canada, Asia, Latin America, The Caribe, and AussieLand to have found a few position players
-They are ALL responsible for this AAAA team, of course they are
-Sabean has had a long ass time to develop a farm system, this veteran “win-now” shit just started a couple of years ago, so blaming ownership for “now” when there has been ten + years prior to “now” is a bit silly to me
-The Giants could have signed “win-now” guys to short term deals (read: one year) to try to “win-now,” they didn’t (see: Roberts, Dave)
-The owner will not fire himself
-Sabean should go
-The franchise is a mess (and many of us here and, for example at BP KNEW this was coming)
-Sabean’s been around long enough.
-And, I don’t credit Brian Saben with developing Yankees, he doesn’t work for them any longer.
Wow only like 2 or 3 posts and already made your front page!
Nothing I said about the Indians was incorrect. They had a top 10 payroll every year from the years listed. You can even cross reference it with these 2 URL’s listed below.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/mlbfs90.htm#team This shows from 96-2000. 2000(7th in payroll), 1999 (9th in payroll), 1998 (6th in payroll), 1997 (3rd in payroll), 1996 (3rd in payroll). And in 2001 they signed Juan Gonzalez to 10 million dollars for 1 year. And had 20 players making at least 1 mill. 17 players in 2002.
http://www.baseball-reference.com (for individual season payroll breakdown for player salaries).
And how exactly was I comparing the Giants to the Twins and A’s draft strategies? If you read correctly you would see that I said those two teams are rarities among MLB teams in the way they have been successful, and as you pointed out in pioneering their draft to fitting their team philosophy. Although I would argue that Atlanta pioneered this first under John Schierholtz. And the post was in response to someone randomly bringing up the Indians, Braves, A’s and Twins as if any of those 4 teams have anything in common.
You seem to have some complex that Sabean is the one who authorizes the budget of the team. Which I find pretty comical, because anybody who actually pays attention would know that is not the case. And in your mentioning of ML talent acquired by Sabean, you forgot Jason Schmidt who has the best winning % for a pitcher (with 100 + decisions) in SF history. A guy that we got for Ryan Vogelsong and Armando Rios. Talk about a steal.
As for your points about not signing old veterans I agree, that has been a major problem, but I again don’t see how this is Sabean’s doing. If the owner isn’t allocating decent funds for you to build a good farm system, while demanding that you win now with an aging HOF’er, are you going to surround Bonds with young players or veterans? And I’ve been criticizing the Giants for the same thing you are except my blame is placed on the OWNER. Funny that you bring up all the great players the Yankees developed like Jeter, Posada, Rivera, Bernie Williams, Pettite etc. WELL GUESS WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEM?! Brian Sabean! He was their Director of Scouting and Player Personnel. Oh no but Sabean knows nothing and apparently HATES draft picks and loves veterans and whatever other BS you want to continue to spew. Face it the guy who saved the team from moving to Tampa is the same one who ruined it with his lust for profits. So instead of allowing his highly accomplished General Manager to do his actual job, he hamstrings him by giving him $ for crappy ML FA’s instead of giving him necessary funds for keeping the farm system respectable.
And to further prove that I do know something (or nothing haha), I’ll refer you to one of the premiere baseball writers in the country, Tracy Ringolsby, with his piece about Sabean being scapegoated unfairly by fans/media.
“Giants general manager Brian Sabean is being hung out to dry.
He has been forced the past three seasons to juggle a budget and build a roster around the declining abilities of Barry Bonds – not because Sabean and the baseball people in San Francisco wanted to retain Bonds but because owner Peter Magowan and the business folks have been adamant about keeping Bonds for marketing reasons.
Now, as the constant fade continues on the field, Sabean is being set up as the scapegoat for the Giants’ failures. When he was working for the Yankees, Sabean played a key role in helping resurrect the Bronx Bombers’ farm system during the time owner George Steinbrenner was banned from the game.
But in San Francisco, with the meddling from the marketing folks, who have Magowan’s ear, Sabean has been forced to forgo long-term development because the franchise has been built around the aging Bonds, who can thrill the fans with home runs but has become a liability on the bases and in the field. ”
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_5598024,00.html
I am so tired of harping on the multitude of Sabean mistakes and desperate manuvers and how Magowan is so obviously blind to Sabean’s incompetance. I’ve been harping on them for years now. Clearly they are not listening.
The Giants are cratering before our eyes. Thank God it’s at the right time- a good month before the trade deadline. Hopefully, even a desperate moron like Sabean should be able to tell that the Giants are horribly constructed team and in need of an overhaul. If he can’t see this, then Magowan needs to step in and fire him.
The Giants needed to rebuild years ago, but are now given an excuse-free scenario to do so. What should they do? Let’s try anything. The only sacred cows in this organization should be Cain and Lincecum- everyone else is tradable. I’m not even going to discuss trading Bonds. Nobody is going to want him and all his baggage. We can’t trade Randy Winn, because he has a no trade clause and would likely want to stay in his native Bay Area despite playing for a moribund team. We can’t trade Zito, because no one will want to walk into his shamefully excessive contract. We can’t trade Omar Vizquel, because he will likely retire at the end of this year. Molina, Roberts Everyone else could and should be on the block.
Listed here in order of most trade value right now:
1. Lowry- a quality pitcher just reaching his prime. Sell high before he turns into Kirk Rueter
2. Morris- having his best year in many years. Sell high!
3. Durham- he can still play and there are many contenders without 2B (Mets perhaps)
4. Sanchez- lots of upside as either starter or reliever
5. Hennesey- versatile and fearless
6. Roberts- sure he’s old and with a horrid contract, but he is still a good led off man
7. Ortmeier
8. F Lewis
9. Feliz,
etc… It’s not a great list, is it? But if we can get a Teahan and/or Texeira for any combo of the above, it would be a start.
I’ve never cared for John’s over-the-top defense of Bonds, but his over-the-top critique of Sabean is spot-on. Not having a discernible system in place for evaluation and development–even more than the bad trades and the bad signings–is the best reason to start parking U-Haul trucks outside Sabean’s home.
John and +mia really nailed it. And I was really starting to get into baseball but this team has just killed my interest. And they are killing it because I don’t see them making changes that are going to bring about a different result besides the slide from the 2002 team and what a landslide it has been. So I guess I wait and hope for a change, one that is not just some Sabean clone, but real change.
For Sabean and Mags: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results.
Kim Ng. From what I have read sounds like an exciting choice.
Train wreck. Disaster area. You name it and it describes the Giants this year — and likely going forward as well.
Remember, folks, this year’s offensive follies are taking place despite having the league’s OPS leader in the lineup on most nights. What happens next year, when Bonds leaves (either by retirement or FA)?
+Mia raises the best point: Why do Tidrow and Hiatt still have their jobs? When Pedro Felix is the highlight of your record over a 10-year period, you should be fired.
Sabean built the Giants’ run in the late 1990s by trades, especially the Jeff Kent deal. I don’t see him being able to do it again. It’s time to back up the truck, ship as many vets as other teams will take (many guys who can’t help the Giants do have some use to other teams who can use them in roles more suited to their abilities) and clean house in the front office.
Will it happen? Don’t bet on it!
Wasn’t Sabean making a play for the Boston job until they hired Epstein? Maybe he’s pulling a Max Bialystok and trying to tank (just fun speculation).
Which potential GMs would be interesting? But if Magowan is a meddler, then it won’t really matter, will it?
- DePodesta
- Logan White
- Kim Ng (how responsible has she been for LA’s success with young players?)
- Mike Rizzo
- Chris Antonetti
others?
Given SF’s market, they shouldn’t have too much trouble attracting good candidates for the job — though only if Magowan gives them latitude in the position. Of course if Magowan’s ‘old school’, then he might be calling Pat Gillick or something.
btw kent
that is exactly what pmg and sabean said at the end of last season….and they fucking lied
i will never believe another word out of either of their mouths again
+mia hits the nail on the head when he says the whispering campaign and subsequent firing of Dusty Baker was the turning point for the Giants. Not to get all hippy or anything, but it was some serious bad karma. Sure, they won 100 games the next season, but that was just the remains of a team that was 6-outs from winning the World Series. Felipe Alou was such a negative impact that I truly believe Dusty Baker would have led the 2004 club to the playoffs quite easily (as opposed to coming up just short).
One thing I don’t understand is how everyone seems to be setting up camp in the blame Sabean group or the blame management group. I say they’re both responsible in different ways — any other argument seems too black-or-white and really a bit absurd.
Finally, on a side rant… if Barry Bonds doesn’t make the all-star team with the HIGHEST OPS IN THE NATIONAL LEAGUE (and that’s including several weeks of slumping) I’m going to snap. This is ridiculous. I’m sure he’ll at least be selected by Tony LaRussa, but it’ll be pathetic if it has to happen that way.
good rant john
i wonder why the entire farm system doesnt approach hitting and offense the way kelly does in augusta…seems to me that he stresses fundamentals and teaches these kids how to play small ball
but once they leave there…that philosophy goes out the window
It doesn’t matter anymore. It just doesn’t. This is an “I told you so of epic proportions”, dating back to 2002. The Stoneham Giants in 1973 selling off Mays two years after a divisional championship. Only to sink into the abyss and but for Bob Lurie and Bud Herseth, off to Labatt’s brewery in Toronto. Bob Lurie hitting the panic button in 1992, 3 years after winning the NL Pennant. And here we are now in 2007, 4 years after our last playoff year.
The timemark is the sacking of Dusty Baker at the end of the 2002 season after Magowan and Baer launched their whispering campaign against him. Whether Bake was a “good” manager or “bad” manager is besides the point. It marked the end of the “era of good feeling” that had enveloped the Giants since 1993. Magowan started keeping statistics up the ass. Hiring Felipe Alou. Making the decisions on the big money players, like Kent, Guerrero, and all the others. Taking a pro-active part in the roster makeup. He made it very clear in public statements in 2002 that he was unhappy with all the credit that Baker had received from media and Giants fans, and emphasized how much it was an “organizational accomplishment and organizational achievement” that brought the Giants division titles and playoff appearances – organization being a euphemism for “me, myself, and I”.
People can blame Sabaen all they want. And John is spot on with his critique and observations about the moves Sabaen has made. But I don’t think you can stop there. I see this as analogous to the 49ers under current dipshit owner Doctor Gigolo who until the last 2 years was a meddlesome sack of shit, who because he was a fan, thought he actually knew something about the machinations of running an NFL franchise, after he ended up the default caretaker after his idiot brother in law ran afoul of the law and in so doing, cast the greatest franchise (arguably) in the modern era of the NFL adrift like a boatload of Haitian refugees. It is taking years to rebuild and the Niners are not even half way back yet. How bad has it been? Well, the Niners finished last season with a .438 Winning percentage. The MLB equivalent of a 71 season–which is where the Giants are heading for. And last season was being celebrated by 49er supporters as a great accomplishment!
The Giants Farm System is a mess, because in spite of drafting and signing about 500 players during Magowan’s 14 year tenure, Pedro Feliz is it offensively speaking? Matt Cain? Thats two fucking players and Feliz is a bottom tier starter at best and Cain is still considered “potential”. Lincecum is on the verge of being ruined by being rushed up and can’t find his command, his velocity, presence or any goddamned thing once videos of his first couple of starts made the rounds of opposing clubs. Stupidest thing in the world to rush a kid with less than a year of pro ball with known control issues up to the Majors.
Obviously something is dreadfully wrong in the farm system. 500 players and nothing. Doods and Doodettes, you can go to Las Vegas and bet your house on Double Zeroes and have a better chance than what the Giants are doing. Obviously they are screwing the pooch. Farm League W/L record is irrelevant, in spite of what the Giants websites tell you. The Farm system is called a farm system because the primary purpose is to grow your players, not win a bunch of what are essentially practice games in Flyover country.
I don’t know why guys like Tidrow and Jack Hiatt who have for more than a decade been responsible for the drafting and developing of players in the minor league system were not fired at least 5 years ago. Contrary to what John speculates, the Giants do have a “hitting system” in place for their minor league players. Really. Its called “If it is not broken, fix it anyway.” They want one swing for everybody. Regardless. Look at the similarities in swings between Linden, Feliz, Ortmeir, Lewis, Niekro. They all hit down on the ball with extreme emphasis on compactness and short swings. Also look at the similarities in production and performance. I’m not even going to get into pitch recognition and selection. Tune in any Giants game and see for yourself the Giants plate approaches and any of their opponents not named Fresno.
Bruce Bochy is about as boring a guy as I’ve ever heard. He’s the perfect on-field caretaker of an inept franchise. Gunnery Sergeant of “The Lost Platoon”. This franchise is now officially a wreck. I can’t think of any good reason to follow them except to check in on them in detached bemusement from time to time.
The Twins “have built a team that has now been in contention for some six years, based on home-grown talent; which is the least-expensive way to do it” …. and a couple or three gifts from Brian Sabean, the idiot.
Great rant, and dead on.
One comment on the A’s. Their first round picks are rarely “first round talent”. Nick Swisher was picked in the first round, according to Michael Lewis, because the A’s said to him, you are a low round pick, but we want you, and if you agree in advance to a low bonus, we will pick you. He agreed. Swisher was the “ugly duckling” body, who could hit, but no scout liked him. Most of the A’s first rounders are like him, low priced signings.
Sabeans strategy is an adequate one to fill out a team roster. Not an entire roster. When you have a core of Bonds and Kent, with a couple modest talents, you can fill the rest with average talent, and win. When your core is one player, its a pathetic strategy.
The biggest problem with the roster is there is only one position player that is exciting to watch. Women are leaving this team, as the young players are gone. I loved the Lewis/Ordemeir/Frandsen lineups, as you never know how a kid will develop, there is some mystery. Visquel is fun to watch, and its a shame he is wasting his last few years on a mediocre to terrible team.
After Bonds hits 758 or so, I am packing it in on this team until it gets some exciting young players. They give new meaning to the phrase “Senior Circuit”.
Did you read “Moneyball?” Swisher was a legit first-rounder who happened to have the skill sets that Beane wanted. Beane wouldn’t go near him for fear someone would snap him up.
How long until the Giants can overbid and bring Leo Mazzone (sp?) here? Hell, I’d even take Perlozzo (sp?) as our manager if Mazzone (sp?) came with him. Just a thought, ’cause at this point I think that Rags and Sabes need to go. As for scouting? I’m not sure if they’re doing their job and being overridden or if they’re asleep at the wheel. (I’d suspect that they’re not THAT bad; they have, after all, found talent that…it just so happens that this talent has blossomed elsewhere.) They’ll have to fight for their jobs too.
I’d also consider the counter-intuitive (or some level of it): I’d begin to explain to Giants fans and San Franciscans that this is a serious organization and that it’s turing a new page; that it’s not quitting on anything, but that it’s going to restructure the roster to provide for more long-term success; that the team on the field is going to work its ass off and make the fans proud, but that it’s going to experience some bumps over the next couple of years; and that losing is not acceptable, but that our current roster does not meet the requirements for long-terms success.
I’d consider juxtaposing these honest (to just about everyone) points with tidbits of Giants history and sketches of the future (Lincecum, Cain, our draft this year). Again, I DID write, “some level of it.” I think that ownership has to address the obvious and not continue to throw out Bush-like (oh damn, sorry for that) rhetoric about how “all’s well, remain calm” (what movie?). This fanbase is smart enough to understand the greatness of Bonds and that he’s leaving soon. Yeah, yeah, probably not going to happen. But, I’m telling ‘ya, people throughout this country are itching for honest talk and fair analysis in just about anything.
Go Giants!